warmblood & arab crosses - good idea or bad? (warning LONG!)

[ancientoaks]

There was an interesting comment on another thread regarding our IRONMAN colt who happens to be half arabian, about why we, as breeders , would ‘cross over’ so to speak. I hope I am paraphrasing this ok, but the full post can be read over there.

I thought it interesting some of what KatinaLiz said, altho confusing and curious at the same time, so thought, rather than 'hijack ’ my own thread re my colt , thought maybe others would like to join in this discussion/debate???
so, to address the post here goes (ouch, can feel the heat already!!)

quote KatrinaLiz from the other thread…

“As for the ideal being bred for, I don’t understand why, if you are attracted to a warmblood registry and its goals in the first place, you would seek to shift that ideal to the arabian - a very different breed, with different fortes, which has been developed over thousands of years.
I have known many arabs, and many of them have been versatile horses for their owners. I have not known many which are top jumpers or dressage horses - why? - because arabs have not been bred for this job… warmbloods have. I have nothing against arabs, or against those who ride arabs in these events, but am very confused as to why someone would try to breed arabians into warmbloods? There are many good warmbloods out there, and they are specifically bred to jump and/or to do dressage.”

my response…(yawn, how I wish I were better at concise writing!)

I may be misinformed, but isn’t it correct that most warmbloods carry some arabian blood?, from minute to substantial, from fairly up close to a ways back, including the likes of Weltmeyer (and IRONMAN, of course) Oskar, Inshallah, etc??

Since the Germans (and others) added purebred arabian blood over the past many years (such as Gharib who was a fabulous jumper, and there were many many others) then for what reason did they add it?

perhaps for the same reasons we like the cross?
Adding size to a lovely, but too small mare, more bone, an opportunity to enhance movement for dressage, jump for the big stuff - it’s what the warmblood can add (not always, but usually)
Refinement, beauty with an ‘aire’ about them, extra trainability, a tad ‘smaller’ size (with an extra large stallion) for those who don’t want to ride a bulldozer, lightness to leg and other aids, stamina, and perhaps a dose of that well loved arab trait, a curious and loveble nature that’s what the arabian blood can add…(not always, but usually)

Also, realize we do NOT breed for ‘heads’…we like pretty (who doesn’t?) and endeavor to choose our horses carefully to include as much ‘pretty’ as we can without sacrificing ‘ability’… but I still don’t understand what makes an ‘arabian’ head , if it is a lovely one, so different or undesirable from a lovely ‘warmblood’ head. or noble vs refined…

I think there is a common misconception among many of how ‘different’ the arabian is from every other breed, when in reality, they are quite varied thru out the breed, making them very much like all other breeds in this respect… from homely and gangly and tall (16h and not necessarily with all those qualities in ONE package!), to tiny, exquisite ‘works of art’ and everything athletic in between…there’s those that can jump the moon, and even some with extraordinary front ends, hindquarters and movement,( altho not common for sure.), and some who are lovely hunters, they are out there…many times succeeding without anyone realizing what they are.and of course, many that can’t do much at all…so I guess I am confused about that statement also, as to why we would breed something so ‘different’ to a warmblood…we think they complement one another well.

And I would be curious to understand what was meant by the arabian was bred for different ‘fortes’, other than jumping, dressage, etc… What fortes did were in mind?

I am a bit surprised that a top trainer would discount any horse of any breed for any discipline without first trying/seeing the animal first…just my personal take of course. It’s unfortunate as I think many individuals from many breeds are lost to top competition because of trainers who may be reluctant to work with one.

We have a couple of warmbloods here ourselves…One is ultra beautiful, (she has a truly ‘arabian’ head w/ very little up close arab blood) She’s sweet, light to handle, pretty mover, athletic…The other is rather homely, heavy moving, irritable and rather unwilling. But I could never base my general opinion on warmbloods based on either of these two, which one is most representative of the ‘warmblood ideal’? I think one has to truly be deeply involved in a breed or type as just an association with representatives of that breed doesn’t always give you the complete picture.

I guess I am too confused as to the statement of why we would want to 'shift the warmblood ideal ’ to an arabian cross breeding program. We believe the ‘ideals’ happily coexist and complement one another…Or at least as I understood the ‘warmblood ideal’ to be… what we are tryiing to do (and have been fairly successful over the years) is to breed athletic individuals with fabulous minds, who also are attractive and personable, for jumping, hunters, and dressage for the " not so inclined to go to the Olympics" crowd…Not that these animals could not, on rare occasions, do fairly well at extreme upper levels,but that is not our primary focus. It is to produce wonderful horses for equine sport that many many people can enjoy, and once in awhile we get a outstandingly exceptional one and who perhaps, in the ‘right’ hands, will go on to great upper level activities.

We work to have horses ‘bred for’ these things, by being carefully chosen individuals that have the conformation, movement and trainability that would make them capable of being successful at a variety of equine sports. To the very TOP levels? Who knows? It depends on so many variables, who trains them, who rides them, and so on…

I could not agree more than ‘not many’ of the arabs would make ‘top jumpers’ (part of the top jumper problem is just the lack of size, period) or dressage horses. However, I think there are a substantial number of ‘average’ warmbloods out there as well who also will never make it to extreme upper levels,despite ‘being bred’ to do these things, as compared to the few at the very very top (who must be ridden by the very very best), don’t you? But there ARE alot more of them out there to choose from … perhaps much of what we are discussing is a numbers problem? If one has hundreds of suitable candidates to choose from, having been trained by relatively competent people, it ups the odds that there will be ‘more good ones’ in that group (breed/type, etc) Quite frankly, there just are not that many arabians out there who are then fortunate enough to be in trained by the best, so it limits ones choices for sure.

The Thoroughbred industry to me, is a classic example…Thousands are bred, and they are specifically bred to RUN…yet so very very few ever make ‘the upper levels’ of their chosen profession…Many cannot ‘run’ at all… So just breeding for a specific purpose does not, I think, in itself, guarantee success at that specific purpose, especially if one only plans on getting individuals destined for the very top…

And if I am not mistaken (again) was not that wonderful open jumper ridden recently by the Frenchman (the former pig farmer) a half arabian (or Anglo - Selle Francais)? the one who bowed his tendon in the Olympics … could never spell or pronounce his name!
and I believe there was also one from England doing three day…at Olympic/Rolex levels…and I know there are many many more examples…it’s all about the individual, I think…

My husband (a TB man) rode a lovely 16h purebred arab a few years back who was fabulous as a hunter w/little schooling or training…(he’s jumping a fence in beautiful hunter form or our website). Were he now to be owned by a top hunter professional I have no doubt that he would have been highly competive, right along with the warmbloods,and TB’s.

here is just one example I found re arabian blood in German warmblood breeding. Excellent wild photo! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/ancientoaks/gharibjumping.jpg
EXTREME… Height 5’ width ?? Stallion Gharib in Egypt before his importation to Marbach. :
In Germany, Gharib was licensed for not only Arabs, but also Trakehners and two other WBs. Two of his sons were also Trak licensed. Both Gharib and one son were highly respected as Jumpers against all breeds in Germany
There is also another purebred arabian , will find his name, in Germany, who won his 100 day test against ALL warmbloods, and I am certain he will be used in their breeding programs for whatever it is they found that allowed him to do so well…
Here is a link to 219 photos of arabs jumping from 1919 to 2005…open jumping, cross country, hunters, eventers…quite a collection. http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/katdwalden/album?.dir=a943&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3A//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/katdwalden/my_photos
And, as in most collections, there are excellent to mediocre examples, as if you had put together a random sampling of 219 warmbloods or TB’s… but it’s a lot of arabs jumping very well for a breed that some consider not suitable for jumping…

We LOVE warmbloods AND arabians and think the cross fits many people’s ideals for a versatile, talented, people loving horse…

any takers on this discussion?

[Oakstable]

I don’t have a dog in this fight never having owned an Arabian. But I read the forums carefully and there seems to be a strong sentiment among German breeders that they like to have Arabian and TB in the pedigree, but further back in the second or third generation.

Well, there is no way to get it back there without an F1 cross. When I first started breeding sporthorses 15 years ago, I wanted a pedigree without TB anywhere upclose. I’ve grown in my understanding over the years and if you do not infuse TB (and Arabian) from time to time, you can go backwards to VERY old style.

I like to see Arabian and TB in a WB stallion pedigree. I believe it adds hardiness and fertility, not to mention a pretty head and big eyes.

A friend of mine bred a very nice Arabian who competed very successfully as a stallion at Scottsdale and on the Arab circuit. When they competed at the CDS annual show, it was a VERY different story and the owner told me that a good Arabian just cannot compete with a good WB.

Then again, don’t even think about taking a WB into endurance where Arabians excel.

I had a Dutch filly by Iroko out of my Star mare, Mariah. She looked like a half-Arabian when she was born. We finally figured out she was double Ramzes and those Arabian genes from WAY back were coming through.

There is a registry in Holland that goes out of its way to recognize Arabian blood in the pedigree.

So of course there is a place for crossing Arabians with warmbloods. I’ve seen some really good crosses and some awful ones. It is very hard to correct a swan-ie neck on an Arabian mare. The pretty face and big eyes couldn’t make up for a most unfortunate swan neck on this cross.

But the foal that triggered the Premium award and the discussion is very lovely and a successful cross, IMO.

[ljshorses]

All I can say is I agree whole heartedly with what you are saying. We too breed a few arabian mares to warmbloods and have had some great results. Not all arabs are suited for this and not all warmbloods cross well with arabs, but with the “right” cross you get increased sensitivity and “go”, intellence, more bone and size etc… We tend to look towards the polish lines mostly but there are many well suited arab individuals out there. In fact I had a 15h Egyptian arab that could jump the moon and often beat out much larger horses in the arena. He also loved going cross country!!! I think the important thing is as in any good breeding program, don’t breed to extremely different indivuals together. Look for warmbloods that are not too long and not too angular. Look for arabs that have rounder more powerful croups and who have good free shoulders and not too high a neck set. Here are a few out of arab mares we bred.

[Arch]

Oakstable, I agree with your comment about warmblood breeders liking blood way back in their pedigrees. They are very careful about the introduction of blood, using very careful doses.

The comment you make Ancient Oak
“I am a bit surprised that a top trainer would discount any horse of any breed for any discipline without first trying/seeing the animal first…just my personal take of course. It’s unfortunate as I think many individuals from many breeds are lost to top competition because of trainers who may be reluctant to work with one.”

Most top trainers look at a pool of horses who are most suited to their own or student’s needs. Both the dressage trainer and jumper trainer I use do not look at arabs for their student’s competition horses. They look for warmblood or warmblood crosses and discount anything they see which is registered half arab. They look in the registeries who have the horses statistically suited to their sport.

Perhaps this discussion should be more about breeding goals and ideals for the sporthorse market as this is where the opinions seem to diverge.

I will stick to my path as you will yours.

[ancientoaks]

@Arch

Oakstable, I agree with your comment about warmblood breeders liking blood way back in their pedigrees. They are very careful about the introduction of blood, using very careful doses.

The comment you make Ancient Oak
“I am a bit surprised that a top trainer would discount any horse of any breed for any discipline without first trying/seeing the animal first…just my personal take of course. It’s unfortunate as I think many individuals from many breeds are lost to top competition because of trainers who may be reluctant to work with one.”

Most top trainers look at a pool of horses who are most suited to their own or student’s needs. Both the dressage trainer and jumper trainer I use do not look at arabs for their student’s competition horses. They look for warmblood or warmblood crosses and discount anything they see which is registered half arab. They look in the registeries who have the horses statistically suited to their sport.

Perhaps this discussion should be more about breeding goals and ideals for the sporthorse market as this is where the opinions seem to diverge.

I will stick to my path as you will yours.

Exactly…the point of the discussion. Each choosing their own path, of course! and it seemed this discussion IS about breeding goals and ideals for the sporthorse market, as that is what KatrinaLiz questioned me about…

so , are you saying that both of your trainers would discount w/o consideration a Selle Francais that also happened to be a half arabian (reg or not)?

Interesting point of the REQUIREMENT for an F1 arabian (or TB for that matter) to begin the descent (poor choice of words) into third and fourth generation arab blood…it sure has to start somewhere, doesn’t it?

[Tom_King]

We have a couple of Half-Arabs that are the nicest all around horses that I’ve ever dealt with. We have an old style Arab mare that we bred a couple of times to Rodioso. She’s not quite 15 hands so although she got high scores on individual items at her inspection, Evellyn put her in the Mare Book. Our gelding, who is 4 now, is 16.2 and looks like he will keep growing for a while. I can do anything with him and he is quite capable of doing anything. Our 3 year old filly is a mirror image (she has the hind sock on the opposite foot) but took more after her dam in size so I will be surprised if she makes it over 15.3. She made the inspectors mouths drop open when they looked up and first saw her. Evellyn said that when we bring her back that she would be" MMB-no question" but I’m not sure she will make the size.

We have always had an Arab around too but wanted more horse under us. One who could have the capability and trainability to do upper level dressage, have some gravity defiance at the trot, but still jump with good adjustability and scope, and be able to look back under your arm at a gallop and see the miles being left effortlessly behind you. I think we got it.

We still have the mare but haven’t had the time for a couple of years to breed the horses. The dog breeding business is taking most of Pam’s time now and I’m doing so many other things-plus I need to add on to the barn some more.

We have had people who wanted to buy these horses a number of times but they are not for sale at any price.

[Landonn_s_mom]

We agree and we love those Ararmbloods.(New word LOL)

Those who know me, know that I truly find the arabian/ warmblood cross to be an ideal sport horse, especially for the adult amatuer. (WOW, your thread really was long!!! but you raise excellent points) Of course the “tried and true” warmblood breeders who find arab blood to be an outrageous dissappointment to warmblood breedings are never going to be convinced, but the fact is, both the cross and the traditional warmblood has a fit in today’s market.

I would not be able to produce the calibre of arab/ crosses on warmbloods if my warmbloods werent “state-of the art” breeding. But my customers and clients find the cross to be more rideable, (just plain easier), more sensitive and people oriented, and they get the added benefit of having multiple arenas to show the horse in, if they choose. My customers are more confident when riding the cross, especially the adult amys, and sometimes it meets a better price point for them and their families.

But our traditional warmbloods have proven to be excellent mounts for me as a pro, and excellent breeding stock. They do bring it “to the next level” and without the well developed and well educated breeders both European and American, we would not have the great warmblood stock to choose from today.

I dont think any cross is “bad” as long as the breeder of the “intended union” has a well thought out purpose for that union. Its “Breeding with Accountability” Something the arab market has overlooked for sometime. I just heard the other day from one of my BN arab clients, that they didnt understand the whole “inspection thing”. After explanation of why we do it, they replied," Well in the arab world, we just choose who has the prettiest, glossiest ads, and most popular, and breed to that." It doesnt make the client a bad person for saying that, but thats how they had been doing it for years, and been somewhat successful. I suppose they got lucky too, but that could be another reason the arabs can get a bad rep. Somewhere down the line, it became acceptable to breed for popularity, and people just followed suit because thats what everybody did.

So in conclusion, I dont think its the “arabian horse blood” that people dont like mixing with their fabulous warmbloods, everybody knows it was in their bloodlines well before anything else was. I think its the stigma that the arabian community (not everyone, obviously) has been producing idiot horses for the past 30 years, just as the warmbloods gained tremedous popularity in the US. Most people in the open hunter/jumper or dressage market wouldnt be caught dead on an arab in that market, why, #1 answer, the horse cant do the work and they wont win riding an arab. Most of these riders have little to no experience with arabians, but what they do know is what they have been told. “Word of mouth”, is a very strong persuader.
On that note…
PS Carel Eijkenaar offered to buy my half-arab shire cross mare, after I rode her for a clinic. (He is an FEI Trainer and one of the selected 100 members of the International Dressage Training Club, rode and managed under George Theodorescu) He said he would like to take her to a client in NY. Well, if she is good enough to be in one of his barns, she is good enough to be in mine!!

[Celebrity]

I love the arab mixed with the wb’s. MJ Farms in Alberta is a great example of a breeding facility that uses the best of both worlds. Many of their mares are angle arab and breed to Warmblood stallions. My best friend buys her hunters from there and I must say that they have all been great. Gorgeous and refined with wb movement and size, with a little more elegance and pretty heads. Like is was said by previous posters, it depends on the mare and stallion and if they are compatible, but when you get a good cross you can’t go wrong.

[Dazednconfused]

I don’t see why a warmblood person (or anyone else, I suppose) would care what crosses people do.

A huge motivating factor to these crosses are the sporthorse classes now - judged by carded USDF and Hunter Breeding judges - they have a place in our breed shows, and if there’s a market for them (which there certainly is) - more power to 'em. If I was breeding these crosses - and people were buying them - and I liked them - I don’t see any need to be concerned about what other people think, really.

Another benefit to those of us who like breed shows - by crossing the arab to a warmblood, people can still show in the Half Arabian classes (whether sporthorse or pleasure classes or whatever) and yet still hold their own in open dressage, jumpers, or eventers.

I saw Ancientoak’s thread with her inspection photos on it and I must say I was very impressed by the colt - both his beauty and good movement really stood out. He can come live in my backyard anyday. That’s obviously a great example of the cross - who WOULDN’T want a horse like that in their barn?

personally, I think life is too short to have an ugly horse. That is purely my opinion, however - and I know that some people don’t care either way (and that’s fine). I think there are some exceptionally beautiful warmbloods - but adding the arabian blood helps even more with that aspect.

While no, arabians are not specifically bred to be sporthorses (or have not been in the past, to be more accurate) - and I don’t think the average arabian is going to be able to compete with the average warmblood (yet - and not for a long time either). That’s pretty simple - warmbloods have decades and decades of breeding specifically for those disciplines behind them, and arabians do not. But there are a few out there who are actually able to compete - OKW Entrigue stands out as one good example.

Furthermore, as already mentioned - arabians and anglo arabians have always been used in warmblood breeding (although relatively far back at this point). They obviously had some good traits to contribute or they wouldn’t have been used - sensitivity, disposition, beauty, overall elegance/type, and way of going, as well as their comparatively smaller size. I have ridden a few warmbloods and they were very cool overall - and I can see how crossing them to an arabian or anglo arabian could be quite beneficial. With the right cross. Also, not everyone should or can be riding a 17hh+ horse - and having a smaller horse can be better for those people.

Anyways - I think my point is - if the warmblood/arab cross works for you and you have no trouble marketing and having successful offspring from it, more power to you - that’s a lot better than most people can say :yes:

[Dazednconfused]

@Landonn's mom

Those who know me, know that I truly find the arabian/ warmblood cross to be an ideal sport horse, especially for the adult amatuer. (WOW, your thread really was long!!! but you raise excellent points) Of course the “tried and true” warmblood breeders who find arab blood to be an outrageous dissappointment to warmblood breedings are never going to be convinced, but the fact is, both the cross and the traditional warmblood has a fit in today’s market.

I would not be able to produce the calibre of arab/ crosses on warmbloods if my warmbloods werent “state-of the art” breeding. But my customers and clients find the cross to be more rideable, (just plain easier), more sensitive and people oriented, and they get the added benefit of having multiple arenas to show the horse in, if they choose. My customers are more confident when riding the cross, especially the adult amys, and sometimes it meets a better price point for them and their families.

But our traditional warmbloods have proven to be excellent mounts for me as a pro, and excellent breeding stock. They do bring it “to the next level” and without the well developed and well educated breeders both European and American, we would not have the great warmblood stock to choose from today.

I dont think any cross is “bad” as long as the breeder of the “intended union” has a well thought out purpose for that union. Its “Breeding with Accountability” Something the arab market has overlooked for sometime. I just heard the other day from one of my BN arab clients, that they didnt understand the whole “inspection thing”. After explanation of why we do it, they replied," Well in the arab world, we just choose who has the prettiest, glossiest ads, and most popular, and breed to that." It doesnt make the client a bad person for saying that, but thats how they had been doing it for years, and been somewhat successful. I suppose they got lucky too, but that could be another reason the arabs can get a bad rep. Somewhere down the line, it became acceptable to breed for popularity, and people just followed suit because thats what everybody did.

So in conclusion, I dont think its the “arabian horse blood” that people dont like mixing with their fabulous warmbloods, everybody knows it was in their bloodlines well before anything else was. I think its the stigma that the arabian community (not everyone, obviously) has been producing idiot horses for the past 30 years, just as the warmbloods gained tremedous popularity in the US. Most people in the open hunter/jumper or dressage market wouldnt be caught dead on an arab in that market, why, #1 answer, the horse cant do the work and they wont win riding an arab. Most of these riders have little to no experience with arabians, but what they do know is what they have been told. “Word of mouth”, is a very strong persuader.
On that note…
PS Carel Eijkenaar offered to buy my half-arab shire cross mare, after I rode her for a clinic. (He is an FEI Trainer and one of the selected 100 members of the International Dressage Training Club, rode and managed under George Theodorescu) He said he would like to take her to a client in NY. Well, if she is good enough to be in one of his barns, she is good enough to be in mine!!

I’d be interested to know your shire/arab cross mare’s name? I know of a couple and have seen one show, wondering if it’s the same horse

[btilton]

Okay, from someone who has little use for Arabs… I don’t hate them, I just haven’t found a single one I’d like to own… and I grew up in very pro-Arab, heavily populated with Arab areas, and I’ve been foxhunting with one… lets put it this way, I thought it made a very nice field hunter… for an Arab, always the caveat. That horse is a good jumper… for an Arab. I will admitt readily that as endurance horses, they have no true competitor (but then again, that whole sport holds no interest for me either.)

I think what the skism may be is that if you are breeding “warmbloods” and your warmblood book has an ideal “type” as a primary type, then the first generation Arab/Warmblood cross is likely not to meet that type. Now, if your goal as a breeder is to produce a smashing Arab sporthorse, or take a mare you really like, but needs more bone, body, whatever it is you like about the warmblood ‘type’, and get a foal from her that exhibits qualities of both, then fine. But the first generation cross isn’t a (I don’t want to say not tried and true, since the Euroupeons do add Arab) but it isn’t a reliable cross on most types of Arabs, IMO.

I don’t know if I am explaining what I think correctly. Okay, why am I ‘into’ warmbloods? Becuase I like a good big horse, with plenty of bone, impulsion, jump, and a more plegmatic brain. I like the conformation of today’s warmblood (with all the added TB, they’ve gotten away from that carriage horse croup, staight angles and common heads of yesteryear). I like a big round muscler rear end, big hocks, a lot of shoulder, a big rib cage and big flat knees. I like a lot of neck out in front of me. Okay, so if I am going to breed for myself and I say, these are the things I like about the warmblood, but I want to show hunters and I need a bit more refinement and a hunter type mover, and maybe I’d like a little better work ethic.

I think the above is a large portion of our amatuer market, I ‘think’ if my intuition is correct, that most people buying horses now a days, do like a bit of size, 16h being the bare minimum for most people and even that is a harder sell than the same horse in a 16.2 or 16.3 h package. Most people want sane and safe and not spooky, but not so lazy and clunky. They want to show in dressage, hunters, eventing, jumpers or equitation and maybe go on a trail ride safely here and there.

so if that’s what I want, if that what a good portion of the buying market wants, than why would “I” want to breed a warmblood to an Arab? With the Arab cross, espcially (IMO) on the bottom, you have a more than 50% chance of getting something under 16h. You take the risk of losing a LOT of the bone (if you liked the mare and just wanted to add a little to her, you would likely get that, but nothing on par with the bone you’d get from another mating), You loose some of that hunter style jump (even that picture the OP posted of the Arab free jumping over a huge fence… the horse still wasn’t round and up in the back, and free jumping is a long way from carrying a man over 5’ easily)

I know I am speaking in generalities, in that most Arabs are going to have less substance, less neck, many don’t have hunter type movement, few jump or use themselves like a traditional hunter, and even the conformational tendancies to a short high croup, a shorter back, just everything about the cross would be going against what “I” would like.

Unlike someone else who might think that the only ideal is mine, the warmblood registires, or the average English rider buyng a horses… I am not going to say that someone is wrong to cross an Arab to a warmblood. If ‘you’ like the result, than that is all that matters. I have seen some ID/crosses that are attractive, athletic and nice… for an Arab But the Arab blood, in various crosses I’ve seen, have definitely stamped their offspring. You are assuredly going to get an offspring that ‘looks’ like it has Arab in it. But if that is what you like, go for it. But to me, what you have is a lovely Arab sporthorse, not a warmblood, per se. It would take multiple crossings to a warmblood type to make it a warmblood with some Arab refinement and type thrown in.

So after all this… I think the answer, Arab crosses - good idea or bad? is, 1) what do YOU want your offspring to look like and perform like and 2) is there suffcient market for such breeding to support it. From what I’ve seen and heard, the Arab sporthorse market is a pretty big deal… so Amen! It ain’t my bag of tea though

b

[friesiandriver]

They look for warmblood or warmblood crosses and discount anything they see which is registered half arab. They look in the registeries who have the horses statistically suited to their sport

Ahhh so they would refuse a trakehner too?? That would be a tough one hey…warmblood breed yet could easily be half arab.

As for this post, I think what is important is the QUALITY of arab that is used. There are ALOT of crappy arabs out there, simply there are ALOT of arabs and because there really is no governing body that inspects and grades these horses every year. Unless the mare is a very good quality, well bred mare I would not do it. However, if you have an arab mare with good bone and movement I think it is an ideal cross because you could easily end up with something taller with good bone, lightness and good movement as well as the sensitivity of the arab, which after riding warmbloods, I can truly appreciate. I also like the prospect of added prettiness and endurance. People can say what they want, but arabs and tb’s have been fundamental in the developement of the major warmblood breeds and are still accepted by the major registries for a reason. Just look at the trakehner, a warmblood breed that excels at the top levels of sport and yet will ONLY take trak, arab or tb into it’s registry.
I have one arab mare, a Varian bred , Desperado v (polish) daughter who is also a full sister to a multi national winner. Her movement is exceptional as is her breeding and temperment. I would like something with more bone, height and athletic ability and so to cross her warmblood makes sense to me.

Again, while I don’t think I would do it with an blah or average arab mare, with something really good, I wouldn’t hessitate. And the OP’s colt is a perfect example of this.

[Sovereign]

I also agree that what is most important when looking to breed to an Arabian or consider purchasing a warmblood that is half-arabian, is the quality of that horse. I’ve found that for my older style Trakehner girls, the Arabian stallion Aul Magic is an excellent cross. You can see a few of our results here:

www.SovereignFarm.com/hugo.html
www.SovereignFarm.com/horatio.html
www.SovereignFarm.com/phailin.html

The foals have all had good bone, size, conformation and excellent movement. The oldest, Hugo, was started under saddle earlier this year and is one of the trainer’s favorites. I’ve heard only positive feedback on how easy and fun he is to ride and train. This is a trainer that rides mostly warmbloods for dressage. I’m going to visit him later this week, so hopefully I’ll get some undersaddle photos to add to his webpage.

If the mare and stallion are a good match and you get good offspring, it doesn’t matter that either may be Arab.

[Cold_Spring_Farm]

I love the cross…when it works. Have seen some God-awful ones, but I truly think they were the result of really going against type.

I grew up with Arabs and later switched to WBs. Still have one of my imported Hanoverian mares…and her Sempatico filly. LOVED riding this mare – but I really missed the arab quick-wittedness and their amazing retention. When they are on your side, you can’t beat them. I compare riding my Hano mare and my arab mares as going from a Hummer to a Ferrari.

Here’s my cross from last year…

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/Sportyhorse/Inspections/

Rosenthal on a MMB GOV mare. Mare is by NV Beau Bey out of a Huckleberry Bey daughter out of an *Eter daughter (added that for the pedigree-knowledgeable among us!) He is incredibly smart, very “tuned-in” to people – and simply remembers everything you teach him. His momma is the same way.

Rosenthal added size, engine and suspension.

[Sporthorse_Shop]

I think when done properly, the crosses are good for the warmblood breeds. Just like crossing TB in here and there is needed. Though for the arab/warmblood cross, I feel you are much better off starting with a warmblood mare. You will keep more size and bone that way. Also, another thing to keep in mind when breeding is to breed similiar type to similiar type. For example if you breed a shortbacked short legged horse to a long backed long legged horse, you risk getting a long backed short legged horse. I have seen this before. Try to breed an arab that is more of a sporthorse build too a refined warmblood mare and then you can take the resulting cross and beef it up more by going back to the warmblood.

An excellent example of a warmblood/arab cross is:
Le Imbrie ( Lasodo+ / / x Imbrie ( SWB ) )

I can’t find a picture of him, but he is breathtaking.

[Oakstable]

If I recall correctly, the percentage of mares bred to German Verband Trakehner stallions is about 3%.

I suspect the biggest concern in breeding to Arabians is size. The market, in general, wants a 16.2H horse.

[Landonn_s_mom]

@Dazednconfused

I’d be interested to know your shire/arab cross mare’s name? I know of a couple and have seen one show, wondering if it’s the same horse

Probably not, the mares name is Sepias Tazo. Never been shown except a couple times at trials in MS. We just did a feature in the Aug. issue of Arabian Horse World. Her picture is in their under the sport horse section. We are showing her this weekend in PA at the half-arab, open dressage show.

[btilton]

I agree that I think if you are going to do it, you are better to keep the bone and size on the bottom half. There is also that adage that a mare gives more of the personaltiy to the foal, and if you are going for something a little more mellow, the warmblood dam on the bottom might help out there.

PS… I don’t think that in general the Traks or the Anglo-French horses are “warmbloods”. The Traks are marketed much the same way, but they are considered a ‘breed’ which only allows Trak, Arab or TB blood. At least as I understand it, so you aren’t going to find any Hannoverian in the Trak pedigree, however, you might find a Trak that fit the warmblood ‘type’ in the Hanoverian pedigree (thus the 3%).
B

[pintopiaffe]

I found this thread earlier, but waited to read it in it’s entirety until I could sit down and chew on it. :winkgrin:

Some very interesting responses, and definite food for thought.

It’s near and dear to my heart, as of course, my stallion is 15/16ths Arab, and my newest colt is 1/2 Arab, 1/2 Trak, and will go RPSI.

I too usually think the ‘blood on top’ is the way to go, given a choice, but the colt who inspired this thread is an example of a mare who is a great candidate to cross. I worked on a very large, very old Tk farm as a working student for a summer. The best producing mares were, to me, giant Arabs. They had huge doe eyes, dished faces, even their body type (and tail carriage!) spoke “Arab.” But they were in the 15.2/15.3h range–interestingly, the best girls weren’t big. Threw ENORMOUS babies, maturing 17h, but the mares weren’t all that big. I think that’s what spoilt me and gave me the ‘eye’ to like more blood…

It’s DEFINITELY about the RIGHT Arab to use. Unfortunately the tax shelter 80’s left us with some animals that make me usually not admit my guy’s breeding except under my breath. :no: :lol:

SOME breeders, a few, have been breeding for ‘sport’ for several generations. It’s no coincidence that my guy made the grade for RPSI, his breeder has one stallion training for Tevis, two in reining/working cowhorse training, and a mare who was bred to Manhattan with premium results. She breeds for back ends that WORK, minds, soundness, and movement. Most of them wouldn’t necessarily win at halter, but they’re doing just fine in SHIH.

Why would you want the cross? Some of us don’t want 16h+. Obviously it’s been mentioned, some of us want the easier, more sensitive ride. Wb’s are easier in a different way–more forgiving perhaps, less reactive in some ways… There are terrific articles on the Everglades Arabians website as to why the Arab is a really top notch Adult Amateur/Owner mount.

Meg Hamilton once said of my guy “this is the kind of horse you see used in Europe for breed improvement.” I personally took that as a definite approveal that he has what it takes for the Sporthorse disciplines, and I ran with it.

I do think though, that it’s a cross more aimed for the AA. I don’t think it’s for the purist market. Apples and Oranges. Doesn’t make it a bad cross, or foolish… just that some of the WB purists are never going to like that F1. I think it’s only in 10 or 20 years we’ll ‘appreciate’ the influence of some of the American Arabs as now we appreciate the Ramzes, Inschallah etc.

[Oakstable]

The Arab/warmblood is most likely to be sold to someone who wants to show on the Arabian sporthorse circuit and likely to be an AA. I agree with pintopiaffe on that point.

There have been many threads on the topic. Look in the dressage forum.

The ISR had a pilot program with First Class to be bred to Arabian mares.

The ATA had a pilot program to look at Arabian and TB crosses. Never went far.

The Arabians were overbred during the '80s for a tax writeoff and the breed is still suffering from it.

Look at prices for Arabians in dreamhorse, etc.

I know of an unbroke Arabian stallion who only competes in a category judging his head. The SO gets as many mares for him as she wants. Yet the guy can really move.

David Beattie imported a Trakehner stallion who has Arabian and TB upfront in his pedigree. He’s in Watertown, WI, – no web site yet.

I have a friend with a purebred Arabian sportpony in training. She says she wishes she could market him as a Welsh cross, not as a Polish Arabian.

People can be rather polarized on Arabians.

I can trace my Trak mare, Lucy, back to the Godolphian Arabian in the all-breeds databank. That’s cool.