Warmblood breeding advice/registration questions

[EventingLady]

I have a registered TB mare that I plan on breeding to a warmblood. I have my eye on Apiro at Marabet Farm. He’s a Bavarian WB and registered Hanoverian and I think a few others (it says on website). I honestly do not know much about registration… My TB mare is registed with the Jockey Club.

I want to make sure that before I breed, the baby could be registered as a WB. What steps do I need to take now for that to happen? Can someone walk me through the whole registration process and possible registration options? I’m thinking of breeding her in May 2015.

[Blume_Farm]

The first thing you need to do is have your mare inspected with whichever warmblood registry you choose. Your choice may be based on which registry holds an inspection closest to you, which registry(s) the stallion of your choice is registered with and who will accept your mare. The toughest warmblood registries to get a Tb mare approved for breeding are the American Hanoverian Society and the GOV. There are many arguments as to if that means they have higher standards/ are better registries or not, and I am sure many will chime in with their opinions.

Once your mare is inspected and hopefully approved for breeding her foals will be registered and branded with the registry.

Unfortunately there will be no inspections before your hoped for breeding date of May 2015 as they are usually held throughout the summer and fall. You can certainly take the chance of breeding her in May and hoping that she gets approved. If she does great! If she does not “pass” inspection I am sure she would be accepted into other less stringent registries (that probably don’t even require an inspection…just pay your dues and send in her papers). However, that opens up a whole 'nother discussion of “should she be bred if she is not accepted into one of the more “respected” WB registries”.

[Scaramouch]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7886310]
Your choice may be based on which registry holds an inspection closest to you, which registry(s) the stallion of your choice is registered with and who will accept your mare. [/QUOTE]

Just to clarify, since it can be confusing, I believe Blume Farm meant which registries the stallion is approved with, rather than registered. It really makes no difference how he’s registered.

If I’m reading correctly, Apiro is registered Bavarian Warmblood, but approved with the American Hanoverian Society, GOV, Oldenburg NA, and RPSI. So a foal out of your mare couldn’t be registered Bavarian, but it could with any one of the latter registries provided your mare is also approved. Your best bet will be to present your mare for approval at an inspection next fall after you breed her - OldNA is quite popular - but as mentioned, approval is not a rubber stamp so it’s a little bit of a risk breeding prior to approval.

[columbus]

The irish Draught Horse Society North America does not require a TB mare be inspected to register her offspring that is by either an approved Irish Draught stallion or an approved Irish Draught Sport Horse stallion. www.irishdraught.com
PatO

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=Scaramouch;7886367]
Just to clarify, since it can be confusing, I believe Blume Farm meant which registries the stallion is approved with, rather than registered. It really makes no difference how he’s registered.

If I’m reading correctly, Apiro is registered Bavarian Warmblood, but approved with the American Hanoverian Society, GOV, Oldenburg NA, and RPSI. So a foal out of your mare couldn’t be registered Bavarian, but it could with any one of the latter registries provided your mare is also approved. Your best bet will be to present your mare for approval at an inspection next fall after you breed her - OldNA is quite popular - but as mentioned, approval is not a rubber stamp so it’s a little bit of a risk breeding prior to approval.[/QUOTE]

Yes, thank you for the correction!

IMO I would strongly recommend going with a registry that inspects their mares. There is a reason the Hano, Old, KWPN, Holst, etc are always the leaders with producing sport horses and that is because they inspect and regulate their breeding stock. This is called responsible breeding and improvement upon the breed. Inspectors are also fantastic people to get opinions from for breeding recommendations and discussing your mare. They have no emotional attachment to your horse and will give you the pros and cons, what they feel you should try to preserve and what to try to improve.

I did exactly what you are trying to do a few years ago with a beautiful Tb mare I obtained. I took her to the AHS folks as she was not accepted due to lack of suspension/ elasticity in her gaits. She had an old significant injury that precluded her from moving well and was a bit too small (under 16h). She did however, score almost all 7s and a few 8s on conformation. I then took the next few months working with her and getting her as fit and a bit more sound and took her to the GOV folks as they had an inspection about 5 months after the AHS folks did. By that point she really looked great and she was approved. My goal was to breed her the next year to a Weser-em pony, but unfortunately she died (due to complications from the old injury actually) a few months later:( My point being, I recommend inspecting first, getting opinions from the inspectors on what you really have and then breeding.

[columbus]

I dont disagree but there are other options. I think there is a lot of bias in the warmblood world against tb dam lines. You can check value of horses and the horses with tb dam line some times don’t sell at all. Or rather it will not necessarily matter at all if you prepare them well for sale in performance but if it is a mare coming back to become a breeding horse…there is a lot of anti TB bias. It is not a slam dunk if you are approved…it can be a waste of time and money for what you get in the end. The same price I get for the IDSH foals. PatO

[camohn]

AHS would be the toughest to get a tb mare approved with. If the stallion is also approved with other wb registries ( oldenburgs or rpsi) then it would be less risk to breed this coming spring and then take the mare to inspection either this coming fall when in foal or next year with foal at side. If the mare does not score well for some reason worst case scenario is she and the foal would be put in a lower book… But still get a cop / some form of papers. The only potential total disaster registration wise is if the mare foals then dies un inspected . Then you can’t get anything for the foal papers wise. ( sadly this happened to me once: lost a mare to post foaling colic).

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=columbus;7888340]
I dont disagree but there are other options. I think there is a lot of bias in the warmblood world against tb dam lines. You can check value of horses and the horses with tb dam line some times don’t sell at all. Or rather it will not necessarily matter at all if you prepare them well for sale in performance but if it is a mare coming back to become a breeding horse…there is a lot of anti TB bias. It is not a slam dunk if you are approved…it can be a waste of time and money for what you get in the end. The same price I get for the IDSH foals. PatO[/QUOTE]

I can only talk about Hanoverian breeding and I completely disagree:( Yes, the Hano folks are strict about what TYPE of Tb they will accept, but they very much appreciate Tb blood in the sport horse. They want a Tb with the right body type and right MOVEMENT as it has been proven to be quite heritable. The Tb should be used to improve the sport horse breeding base, and hence should have the desirable traits to pass along. Not many US Tbs have that type anymore, that is where the problem lies. I have been to mare shows in Germany where a good proportion of the mares presented were “half-breds”…usually via Laurie’s Crusador.

Here is a link to the Tb mare I presented and was not AHS approved due to lack of movement, but her type is what they want.

http://blumefarm.com/mymares/kakuaxxmmbgovwem.html

[Megaladon]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7886584]
Yes, thank you for the correction!

IMO I would strongly recommend going with a registry that inspects their mares. There is a reason the Hano, Old, KWPN, Holst, etc are always the leaders with producing sport horses and that is because they inspect and regulate their breeding stock. This is called responsible breeding and improvement upon the breed. Inspectors are also fantastic people to get opinions from for breeding recommendations and discussing your mare. They have no emotional attachment to your horse and will give you the pros and cons, what they feel you should try to preserve and what to try to improve.

I did exactly what you are trying to do a few years ago with a beautiful Tb mare I obtained. I took her to the AHS folks as she was not accepted due to lack of suspension/ elasticity in her gaits. She had an old significant injury that precluded her from moving well and was a bit too small (under 16h). She did however, score almost all 7s and a few 8s on conformation. I then took the next few months working with her and getting her as fit and a bit more sound and took her to the GOV folks as they had an inspection about 5 months after the AHS folks did. By that point she really looked great and she was approved. My goal was to breed her the next year to a Weser-em pony, but unfortunately she died (due to complications from the old injury actually) a few months later:( My point being, I recommend inspecting first, getting opinions from the inspectors on what you really have and then breeding.[/QUOTE]

Did the inspection judges not take her injury into consideration?

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=Megaladon;7888603]
Did the inspection judges not take her injury into consideration?[/QUOTE]

Yes, and no. They really wanted to approve her after her presentation standing. However, she had such limitations to her gait at both walk and trot they just felt they could not decide how much was due to injury. Suspension is so highly heritable and they do not want to introduce “flatter” movement into the breed that they really have no “wiggle” room to that parameter. I totally understand and agree, even though it worked against me with this particular mare.

Since I believed in the mare I spent the next few months really trying to work on the lameness and injury (massage, acupuncture, laser, wrapping, sweating, etc) and hand walking, lunging to get her fit. It really helped and by the GOV inspection a few months later she was about 75% improved and did well. I then sort of changed direction and was planning on breeding her Weser-em so the GOV worked. Had she remained sound-ish (and survived) I would have represented to the AHS the following year just to see. But she died due to lymphatic issues in the limb related to the initial injury.

[EventingLady]

I talked to a breeder who has bred many of her TB mares to Apiro (the stallion I chose), and she said her babies always end up getting registered as Hanoverian or Oldenburg. I’m crossing my fingers the same will happen to me! She told me to just go with mare and foal together to get them inspected at the same time. My mare has a ton of suspension and actually very nice movement (people always think she’s a WB), so I’m hoping she will get approved for Hano or Oldenburg.

Apiro throws huge amazing babies with huge movement. Look him up! I die when I watch videos of him… so beautiful!

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I thought Apiro was at Silver Creek?

Anyway, OP, you should do a search for him on here. Lots of threads–you will have fun. I bred to him once, but didn’t get a foal (totally the mare’s issue, not his–she had developed an infection). One of my friends has one out of a TB mare as well. Very quiet, sweet bay mare.

If I remember right the dam died and the mare isn’t inspected though. That is a risk.

[Megaladon]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7888845]
Yes, and no. They really wanted to approve her after her presentation standing. However, she had such limitations to her gait at both walk and trot they just felt they could not decide how much was due to injury. Suspension is so highly heritable and they do not want to introduce “flatter” movement into the breed that they really have no “wiggle” room to that parameter. I totally understand and agree, even though it worked against me with this particular mare.

Since I believed in the mare I spent the next few months really trying to work on the lameness and injury (massage, acupuncture, laser, wrapping, sweating, etc) and hand walking, lunging to get her fit. It really helped and by the GOV inspection a few months later she was about 75% improved and did well. I then sort of changed direction and was planning on breeding her Weser-em so the GOV worked. Had she remained sound-ish (and survived) I would have represented to the AHS the following year just to see. But she died due to lymphatic issues in the limb related to the initial injury.[/QUOTE]

Oh, that’s too bad and sorry about the mare’s passing. Makes me wonder if there is any hope for TB mares that have injuries; is it even worth owners putting them through it.

[RanchoAdobe]

I have never felt any TB bias against my TB mare at GOV. She was easily approved and her most recent baby was a Foal of Distinction- where they specifically commented on how this was the exact type of TB mare that Americans need to be utilizing in their breeding programs. She also has a premium Apiro foal- who is a lovely, lovely coming three year old. Good choice with Apiro- he crosses beautifully on the TB mares.

[Majestic_Gaits]

There is some really nice TB mares out there and it is very important blood to have in the warmblood breeding. Often in Europe it is brought in on the top side. We have so many TB mares we tend to bring it in on the bottom side.

The KWPN-NA doesn’t inspect the TB mares. They accept them automatically and give Register A papers. They found that inspecting the offspring was better. Makes for super options for those mares that aren’t in shape for an inspection or too far away. So, you might look at the Dutch KWPN approved stallions.

For the other registries, you can have her inspected with the foal by their side.

Kathy

[EventingLady]

thanks everyone for the info! This may be a really dumb question…but can the baby be registered with multiple registries? How do I decide which one to go to ? I’d prefer Hanoverian, but how do I choose?

[Majestic_Gaits]

Any of the registries that are part of the WBFSH (Word Breeding For Sport Horses) can not have foals that cross register in other registries. Most Warmblood registries are part of that. Hanoverian, KWPN, etc. So, I’d pick the registry you want the papers with and go with it.

Kathy

[camohn]

Stallions are often listed for breeding with multiple registries, but you have to pick just one to register the foal. I would also look
And see what registries hold an inspection near you. I’m lucky I live in an area that has them all, but some places people have to haul foals long distances.