Warmblood Import Nightmare

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Don’t throw things at your computer screen for my asking (and apologies if it’s mentioned in a post or page I missed), but according to my sketchy Google research after reading this thread, it doesn’t appear that the horse was in a traditionally high-risk area for Glanders. How could he have been exposed? Is there an outbreak in the area?

I’ve never (and likely will never) imported any animals, but for transactions of this magnitude, is there insurance the new owners could have taken out on the costs of quarantine?

I agree that, especially for a horse for a junior rider, this does seem nuts. My heart does go out to the child–this is complicated to understand, even for an adult–and for the horse, who, of course, is an innocent victim in all of this.

[findeight]

He shipped out of Belgium from what I gather. But there are agents who consolidate horses from all over Europe into plane loads. Also usually when trainers go over to try sales horses, horses are sourced from other locations and brought to a training center for sales presentations so they can see many, many, many in one place at the same time… Rarely do US buyers visit individual owners at small home barns or spend a day looking at just 2 or 3.

Horses come into contact with many others from all over during the process. So do those who handle them. Yes, they are mindful and careful but…

[Denali6298]

@kkgeorgio

Some of these comments are absolutely HORRENDOUS and you all should be ashamed! Picking on the trainer and the mom for their use of exclamation marks. Do you know how frustrating it is to deal with government bureaucracy? How shameful of you to pick on this family over their attempts to prevent an innocent animal from being euthanized. They are not professionals at dealing with the government. Were you not taught if you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing at all?

Tweeting at the President may seem unwise to you-but honestly what does it hurt? Nothing. If you were in this situation, you would likely be doing EVERYTHING in your power. Even if the President never sees it, certainly others may.

Also, it absolutely is valid to bring up they are a military family, when you all, are the same ones criticizing them for being a wealthy family with elitest problems. News flash, they aren’t. They are clearly an average family who have found themselves in an atrocious situation, and some of you are heartless enough to be critical of them. First you give them no sympathy because they are just some rich family. Then you criticize them for bringing up the fact that they are a military family.

I am seriously disgusted by so many of you. I didn’t know people could be so heartless towards fellow equestrians. Shame on you.

I think what people were trying to point out was letters like the one sent don’t help. To reach a point where a government agency feels harassed tells me it wasn’t just the daily calls for updates. It’s best to let the attorney handle it from here on out.

I only saw one poster assume the family was affluent. Everyone else shot that post down. Mentioning the family is a military family to describe the tax bracket is one thing. Using it to get special treatment is something I will NEVER agree with. I say that as someone on active duty.

I feel bad for the horse and the child in this situation.

[Pennywell_Bay]

@Impractical Horsewoman

Don’t throw things at your computer screen for my asking (and apologies if it’s mentioned in a post or page I missed), but according to my sketchy Google research after reading this thread, it doesn’t appear that the horse was in a traditionally high-risk area for Glanders. How could he have been exposed? Is there an outbreak in the area?

I’ve never (and likely will never) imported any animals, but for transactions of this magnitude, is there insurance the new owners could have taken out on the costs of quarantine?

I agree that, especially for a horse for a junior rider, this does seem nuts. My heart does go out to the child–this is complicated to understand, even for an adult–and for the horse, who, of course, is an innocent victim in all of this.

It has not been eradicated from Africa, Asia, the Middle East, Central America, and South America. It has lost the genes that allow it to live in the soil, so the transmission is equid exposure (aerosol usually but can live in the environment- feed- buckets- stalls for up to 2 years). It is easily killed by standard sanitation techniques,

Poverty and funding has been the crippling factor in testing in those countries. I’m going to vaguely compare it to Ebola- where it typically kills its host relatively quickly. There is an uncommon, low prevalent strain that allows the host to live and shed the bacteria.

it is no doubt dangerous and an abundance of caution needs to be used. And it has been proven to be zoonotic- so people can get infected.

My side note is the current vet in charge of US procedures and protocols is different than the one who was in place in the 2014 and 2017 incidents. Current vet specializes in beef and dairy (I am sure qualified- just noting he has only been in place less than 8 months).

[Temecula_Jumper]

@kkgeorgio

Some of these comments are absolutely HORRENDOUS and you all should be ashamed! Picking on the trainer and the mom for their use of exclamation marks. Do you know how frustrating it is to deal with government bureaucracy? How shameful of you to pick on this family over their attempts to prevent an innocent animal from being euthanized. They are not professionals at dealing with the government. Were you not taught if you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing at all?

Tweeting at the President may seem unwise to you-but honestly what does it hurt? Nothing. If you were in this situation, you would likely be doing EVERYTHING in your power. Even if the President never sees it, certainly others may.

Also, it absolutely is valid to bring up they are a military family, when you all, are the same ones criticizing them for being a wealthy family with elitest problems. News flash, they aren’t. They are clearly an average family who have found themselves in an atrocious situation, and some of you are heartless enough to be critical of them. First you give them no sympathy because they are just some rich family. Then you criticize them for bringing up the fact that they are a military family.

I am seriously disgusted by so many of you. I didn’t know people could be so heartless towards fellow equestrians. Shame on you.

Thank you so much for expressing this sentiment. It’s been so hard biting my tongue on some of these comments.

[CanteringCarrot]

@Denali6298

I think what people were trying to point out was letters like the one sent don’t help. To reach a point where a government agency feels harassed tells me it wasn’t just the daily calls for updates. It’s best to let the attorney handle it from here on out.

I only saw one poster assume the family was affluent. Everyone else shot that post down. Mentioning the family is a military family to describe the tax bracket is one thing. Using it to get special treatment is something I will NEVER agree with. I say that as someone on active duty.

I feel bad for the horse and the child in this situation.

Agreed on the military thing.

But like, saying it is a military family, ok… A family of an E-5 varies from the family of an O-6 income wise. So “military family” means nothing to me in respect to describing how “average” or non-affluent they are.

[RainWeasley]

@kkgeorgio

Some of these comments are absolutely HORRENDOUS and you all should be ashamed! Picking on the trainer and the mom for their use of exclamation marks. Do you know how frustrating it is to deal with government bureaucracy? How shameful of you to pick on this family over their attempts to prevent an innocent animal from being euthanized. They are not professionals at dealing with the government. Were you not taught if you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing at all?

Tweeting at the President may seem unwise to you-but honestly what does it hurt? Nothing. If you were in this situation, you would likely be doing EVERYTHING in your power. Even if the President never sees it, certainly others may.

Also, it absolutely is valid to bring up they are a military family, when you all, are the same ones criticizing them for being a wealthy family with elitest problems. News flash, they aren’t. They are clearly an average family who have found themselves in an atrocious situation, and some of you are heartless enough to be critical of them. First you give them no sympathy because they are just some rich family. Then you criticize them for bringing up the fact that they are a military family.

I am seriously disgusted by so many of you. I didn’t know people could be so heartless towards fellow equestrians. Shame on you.

Whoa there buddy. I don’t recall reading anyone saying anything about them being wealthy, it was established from the beginning that this is an average family.

And I can’t speak for others, but for me personally, it all just makes me question what has really been going on. As in, is the story they are spreading actually what has been happening or have they been so emotional (as they have every right to be) that they are missing or misunderstanding things. Which can happen.

My very first instinct was “Omg how awful, those poor people, the USDA sucks”. But as more comes out, I can’t exactly help that my opinion is changing and that the situation is that straightforward.

No matter what, I hate it for that family, for the girl, and for that horse.

[MHM]

@Temecula Jumper

No miscommunication on that point. The facility at LAX is privately owned and run by Jet Pets, not the USDA. If it was run by the USDA as the facilities in Miami and NY are, then the daily fees would be capped at around $260 per day. Jet Pets first charged the family $375 per day, then arbitrarily raised it to $1200 and are now saying they are raising it to $1300.

Holy cow. :eek:

When did those price bumps happen? Or what is the ballpark Jet Pets figure now, on top of the initial purchase price of the horse?

Regardless, I feel terribly sorry for the horse and the family, and I hope he passes the test and gets out of jail tomorrow.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@Pennywell Bay

It has not been eradicated from Africa, Asia, the Middle East, Central America, and South America. It has lost the genes that allow it to live in the soil, so the transmission is equid exposure (aerosol usually but can live in the environment- feed- buckets- stalls for up to 2 years). It is easily killed by standard sanitation techniques,

Poverty and funding has been the crippling factor in testing in those countries. I’m going to vaguely compare it to Ebola- where it typically kills its host relatively quickly. There is an uncommon, low prevalent strain that allows the host to live and shed the bacteria.

it is no doubt dangerous and an abundance of caution needs to be used. And it has been proven to be zoonotic- so people can get infected.

My side note is the current vet in charge of US procedures and protocols is different than the one who was in place in the 2014 and 2017 incidents. Current vet specializes in beef and dairy (I am sure qualified- just noting he has only been in place less than 8 months).

Thank you! That is really quite interesting…I do admit to finding the epidemiology behind it fascinating in a geeky sort of way, as sad as the situation might be. I can understand better now, given the shipping conditions, how it might theoretically be spread by accident, even a handler touching one infected horse and then another, although like everyone else in the thread, I hope this was a false positive.

Regardless of the financial situation of the family, the costs are pretty mind-boggling to my easily boggled mind regarding costs.

[WildLittleWren]

@MHM

Holy cow. :eek:

When did those price bumps happen? Or what is the ballpark Jet Pets figure now, on top of the initial purchase price of the horse?

Regardless, I feel terribly sorry for the horse and the family, and I hope he passes the test and gets out of jail tomorrow.

Well, I would imagine they can’t use their quarantine facility with what they perceive to be a horse that possibly has Glanders? So maybe they are renting the entire quarantine facility at this point?

[Coanteen]

@CanteringCarrot

Agreed on the military thing.

But like, saying it is a military family, ok… A family of an E-5 varies from the family of an O-6 income wise. So “military family” means nothing to me in respect to describing how “average” or non-affluent they are.

“Military family” should actually make them more understanding of the frustrating ways of bureaucratic organizations (“understanding” in that this kind of thing would almost be expected, and understanding that any policy change would come way too late for the animal). I certainly know it’s done that for me, ain’t no inertia like government inertia, and the military is very much inertial. My US colleagues in uniform all say the same.

I tell stories to my international military colleagues, and the reaction is “yeah lol, ours too.” I tell the same stories to my civi colleagues and they’re like “OMG THAT CAN’T BE TRUE HOW HORRIBLE AND INEFFICIENT NO ORGANIZATION WOULD FUNCTION LIKE THIS.”

[Pennywell_Bay]

@WildLittleWren

Well, I would imagine they can’t use their quarantine facility with what they perceive to be a horse that possibly has Glanders? So maybe they are renting the entire quarantine facility at this point?

And I surmise they also may have a few to divert other animals that were scheduled to be received at their facility. The arriving animals would be diverted by plane? Or have to be shipped. Perhaps the price jump is to absorb the cost which wouldn’t be deferred to the new arrivals owners?

[Equkelly]

I wasn’t trying to say that I think they shouldn’t bring up the military because it’s unethical. I’m saying don’t bother with it because it’s just pointless to bring up. If it was going to help yea sure tell them you’re a military family going through chemo treatment that just got laid off and also put down their cat. I’m not judging.

I’m just saying the “appeal to emotion” fallacy won’t work with the USDA in this situation. You have to look at people’s interests. The USDA’s objective is to follow protocol. They’re not making judgment calls off of anything else except the results of that test. When you start going on about how this is financially devastating for a military family and write an ESSAY about how mean and unfair this all is, they don’t care. They don’t care about anything else other than that test result. And by going on and on trying to garner sympathy only shows you still aren’t getting it because if you were, you’d know that the family’s circumstances change nothing.

And FFS nobody here is attacking the family. This is terrible all the way around. But between the Facebook comments and that trainwreck of a letter, there’s a lot of crap there that’s problematic and won’t help. That’s all people are saying. Emotions are high and nobody’s judging the family for being upset. But this situation could be handled differently.

[chestnutmarebeware]

@RainWeasley

Whoa there buddy. I don’t recall reading anyone saying anything about them being wealthy, it was established from the beginning that this is an average family.

And I can’t speak for others, but for me personally, it all just makes me question what has really been going on. As in, is the story they are spreading actually what has been happening or have they been so emotional (as they have every right to be) that they are missing or misunderstanding things. Which can happen.

My very first instinct was “Omg how awful, those poor people, the USDA sucks”. But as more comes out, I can’t exactly help that my opinion is changing and that the situation is that straightforward.

No matter what, I hate it for that family, for the girl, and for that horse.

I came from a military family ( dad was a colonel) and his salary alone would not support importing a horse and paying the weeks of quarantine fees. There is probably family money in the mix.

[kkgeorgio]

Allow me to share a few quotes from this thread:
“That’s really interesting but all due respect to everyone, it’s a little outrageous that there exists a government agency that will assist the affluent in importing their upper 5 figure large livestock luxury pet–especially one that failed a health quarantine. This is clearly not a farmer with his/her livelihood on the line.”

Accusing the family of being wealthy here.

“Why in the WORLD would the President be interested in an expensive imported horse and the USDA testing methods?”

To be frank, the officials that the President has in place, who represent him via administrative policy SHOULD be interested in the fact that the government is attempting to force owners to euthanize their healthy livestock because of a faulty test. This is absolutely something that should not be happening. When and if this info gets to the correct people, guarantee the policy will be looked into.

“Ok that is… delusional. No wonder the USDA and Jetpets doesn’t want to work with these people anymore. This is obviously devastating but they need someone on their team to be rational and guide them through the decision making during this mess because mom and trainer are really not helping.”

Long shot? Yes. Delusional? No.And seriously, so rude! In case you aren’t aware people do see things on twitter. You never know when the right person, who cares enough about an innocent animal will see a tweet and get involved. Wilder things have happened.

“This sentence in the FB post is pretty telling, “Please send an email to the USDA,
[list of organizations/people], and any group that thinks killing our horse for a disease that has been eradicated for years is wrong!” I’m genuinely curious if this trainer reads what she is writing. Of course it’s not “wrong” to kill a horse that may have a disease that has been eradicated for years.”

It is absolutely wrong to kill a horse that may have a disease (also may not. HELLO). If not for moral reasons, absolutely for financial reasons. It is shocking that you think this family should be out tens of thousands of dollars because their horse has tested suspect, via a test that is known to have false positives. And oh by the way has tested negative 8? times on another test used by other countries.

[poltroon]

@kkgeorgio

It is absolutely wrong to kill a horse that may have a disease (also may not. HELLO). If not for moral reasons, absolutely for financial reasons.

This is the law in all kinds of situations, including some that involve far more animals, animals that are far harder to replace (in the sense of unique genetics for example), and around diseases that are less dangerous.

It’s not a happy thing but it’s also not done without reason or simply to cause pain and suffering. Sometimes, to my eyes, the reasons are good, and sometimes they are bad. Sometimes USDA has more discretion, because it’s based on internally formulated policy, and sometimes their rules are written into statute and can only be changed by Congress.

It’s not a fun day when an animal species you care about has a reportable disease in your vicinity.

[Coanteen]

@kkgeorgio

It is absolutely wrong to kill a horse that may have a disease (also may not. HELLO). If not for moral reasons, absolutely for financial reasons.

And all the other horses’ owners that were in that shipment (21 apparently) had to pay for extra quarantine for their negative horses because this horse popped positive. It sucks, but that’s the law and it’s the risk of importing.

No one here is against the USDA reviewing their policy and recommending that the regulations be changed. But as this does apparently require Congressional approval, it’ll be slow going.

Appeals to emotion about an “innocent” horse being held in a “jail cell” at risk of being “executed” won’t prompt anything but an eye roll among officials.

[IPEsq]

The horse was/is clearly sick with something. Fever, abnormal CBC, and this suspect test.

Perhaps it’s not something the horse should be euthanized over, but USDA rules on glanders aside, if you were the quarantine, the hauler, the boarding barn the horse is going to, even possibly the hospital the horse will stop off at along the way, wouldn’t you like some conclusive evidence that the horse is no longer sick before it leaves quarantine? Then add on that it is suspected to be sick with a reportable disease. Do we know if it doesn’t have glanders that it doesn’t have some other communicable disease?

One reason I saw from the trainer’s FB on not sending the horse back was something like no vet would allow a horse with this CBC on a plane. This was some weeks after it started when the drama about the USDA vet was exploding.

I’m sorry that these people are going through this. I’m sorry that the horse is going through this. But they didn’t ship horse back when they had a chance, and the horse is not well…with something, potentially something bad. There is a public interest to not releasing this horse.

As for the c-ELISA test… was that really done pre-import for glanders? My horse had c-ELISA tests as part of the 6 piroplasmosis tests done. Dourine and glanders were both CFT. Mine was done at a lab in Germany, not Belgium or NL if that matters, but I don’t think c-ELISA for glanders is standard??

[SummerRose]

@kkgeorgio

It is absolutely wrong to kill a horse that may have a disease (also may not. HELLO). If not for moral reasons, absolutely for financial reasons.

US trade in livestock and animal products is valued in the billions. The US must maintain strict biosecurity not only to try to prevent the introduction or spread of disease, but also to keep the trust of our trading partners. If the US allows possibly infected animals in, then foreign countries will start banning US livestock and products which would result in the loss of billions of dollars. The unfortunate fact is that tens of thousands of dollars is minimal in comparison. Even in the horse industry alone which represents a small part of that trade, it isn’t worth risking our ability to export US horses.

I think everyone would agree that the US should be using the most accurate test possible but unfortunately the USDA is pretty tightly bound by the current regulations.

A couple of posters have mentioned how complicated it generally is to change regulations. While it doesn’t usually quite literally take an act of Congress, rewriting regulations is hard, expensive, and time consuming.

General overview - some laws/regs might be handled slightly differently but this is generally how it’s done:

Congress enacts the basic statute/law (US Code) then the regulatory agencies write the rules and regulations to enforce the statute.
”‹
”‹”‹”‹The regulatory agency writes the regulation, performs economic/environmental analysis as required, has it internally reviewed and revised to make sure it is legal, then posts it in the Federal Register for public review and holds hearings if necessary, revises it if necessary, then publishes the final rule again in the Federal Register(Code of Federal Regulations).

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹This is expensive and time consuming so the agencies have to prioritize. Given the horse industry’s relatively low trade value compared to other agricultural commodities, changing the regulations in regards to horses is probably low on USDA’s priority list.

(Congress can change regs and agencies can issue emergency rules but neither of those things are common.)

I agree that requesting the USDA to make an exception is probably (almost definitely) futile. And counterproductive, IMO.

Contacting congresspeople is probably also futile but it has worked on rare occasion before so worth a try, I think.

[Coanteen]

@SummerRose

US trade in livestock and animal products is valued in the billions. The US must maintain strict biosecurity not only to try to prevent the introduction or spread of disease, but also to keep the trust of our trading partners. If the US allows possibly infected animals in, then foreign countries will start banning US livestock and products which would result in the loss of billions of dollars. The unfortunate fact is that tens of thousands of dollars is minimal in comparison. Even in the horse industry alone which represents a small part of that trade, it isn’t worth risking our ability to export US horses.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

Over 4 million cattle were culled over BSE, and then governments paid hundreds of millions in compensation to the farmers. There were still millions lost due to countries closing their borders to exports from affected countries.

That’s what the rules are supposed to prevent, and that’s why changing them is onerous. While this horse, while it may have something going on, is probably not infected with the disease of interest, and while it would be ideal if the better more specific test were allowed by regulation, a single private importer losing the value of one animal doesn’t even register in the grand scheme of things.