Warmblood Import Nightmare

[RacetrackReject]

Mistakes were made and I am sure all of the players involved have learned about all the mistakes made and how they could have been avoided, but that doesn’t change their current situation nor does it make them bad people. While we can sit back and say that some of the things that were tried to “fix” this situation seem silly or outrageous, I know that when I am under a lot of stress and emotional, I do not make the best decisions. It’s human nature to want to try anything, especially when a situation includes your child. I get that and while I may not agree, I can’t really fault anyone for it. I feel like some of us need to remember that. It is easy to sit back and judge a situation when you are not involved.

As for the military thing, I live an hour from post and own a service business that many military people seek out. There is not one single person who has contacted me that is in the military who did not ask for a discount because of their service. As a matter of fact, it is so predominant that it is a big discussion in our industry as it’s usually the first thing that people seeking our services ask- do you offer a military discount.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@atl_hunter

Why not directly ask the trainer on the Facebook post since you’ve hunted her down over there and are actively reading her posts?

I suggest you go back and look at post #117, page 3. OP shared an email from the trainer that was sent to the USDA that the trainer signed with her name. OP also shared communications from the USDA that were sent to the trainer/owner (maybe both? It’s unclear) concerning their options at the time. OP SPECIFICALLY stated on that post that the family WANTED the email from the trainer to the USDA and the entire situation made public. The trainer has emailed multiple people and posted MULTIPLE public updates about this case on social media, and asked for advice/assistance. As has the family. Details about their situation and links to their GFM account have been shared widely online. And the trainer, owners and their friends have repeatedly commented that they want to draw public attention to their situation in hopes it will help get the USDA to consider some sort of additional options for their horse, or possibly get more people to donate to the GFM account which would help mitigate the financial impact of the situation.

It’s fine and fair to disagree with my criticism of bringing up military service as part of a GFM plea for assistance. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. It’s fine to disagree with my opinion that the trainer has behaved unprofessionally on social media with her posts.

But saying I “hunted down” this trainer on social media? I think that’s unfair.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@kmwines

Definitely. Especially in the beginning I totally get the allure/reasoning of keeping him in quarantine. Like okay it’s going to cost 26,000 to fly him back and then who knows to sell back, etc vs okay 1 more week in quarantine I’m sure he’ll test negative on that one. You bargain with yourself well if I spend a little more now he’ll be fine. I can see how it all snowballs quickly. Especially when you’re getting info from the horse flight ppl, jet pets, USDA, people online, etc. And ppl online make you feel like shit if you’re thinking of euthanizing “a perfectly healthy horse” as someone on here said.

I still can’t figure out though if the trainer has a financial stake in this ownership though with some of her language.

I’ve definitely stated criticism of certain aspects of this situation… but I absolutely would NOT criticize the owners making a decision to euthanize the horse. I do sympathize with the position the mother is in… her daughter is 15 and aware of the situation, and trying to explain to a 15 year old that horses are livestock, etc, USDA policy is inflexible… that’s tough.

I have kids and animals, and have held both my kids while they sobbed because we had a beloved animal cross the rainbow bridge. At times, I have revealed the truth slowly in smaller pieces in order to cushion the blow for my kids. They’re younger though. I don’t know that is possible with a 15 year old.

I do know that it might be a heck of a lot easier on the mother and the child if the trainer… who they seem to trust and like, told them specifically that she would 100% support them if they chose to euthanize this horse. If you have never owned a horse before (I am under the impression this family hasn’t) and you have never had to make the call to put one down … it’s a hard thing to go through. Especially when it’s not an acute catastrophic situation like a major colic or broken bone. If the trainer also offered a free lease, or perhaps a sort of free partial lease (the child gets 3 specific days a week or something like that) on a specific horse in her lesson program or at her barn for 6 months to 1 year to this family and child while they are working through this mess and grieving… it might help cushion the blow and perhaps give the child something positive to focus on for a bit, as well as help mitigate the financial hit this family experienced on this whole imported horse purchase gone HORRIBLY wrong. The trainer did indeed act as the buyer’s agent in the situation… I’m no fan of lawsuits as they rarely solve much of anything. Maybe this would be a good way to heal and go forward, and be something that the trainer actually COULD choose to do at this time to help her clients.

Just a thought on the whole issue of how awful it will be to euthanize this horse for the family emotionally… and how the trainer could help support them. People online criticizing a decision to euthanize on the part of the family probably haven’t ever had to make a really hard call before with a horse who was young, and a financially impossible and impractical bill related to “saving” it.

[Equkelly]

@atl_hunter

Why not directly ask the trainer on the Facebook post since you’ve hunted her down over there and are actively reading her posts?

Uhh no, no, no. Nobody hunted anyone down on social media. This trainer was told by other professionals, the USDA, and jetpets over and over again to send the horse back. The HEAD VET of the freaking USDA told her himself. She was the one who insisted that she “personally believed” he would eventually test zero… based on what? Did she speak to a fortune teller? Or did she extensively study advanced micro biology or other veterinary related sciences? Does she have background in studying this disease or a background in agricultural bio security? Like what the hell was it that made her “personal beliefs” trump every other professional’s opinion? Did I miss something?

I don’t think I did. I think this lady thought she could stomp her foot and scream her head off on Facebook and the rest of the horse community would surely rally behind her. That’s a piss poor strategy when you’re dealing with the freaking USDA.

And now some of you are going to say we “hunted her down” on Facebook? NOPE. If you’re going to throw a hissy fit on Facebook and try to get the horse community to support you don’t be shocked when people call you out for your sh*t.

So yea… I am pointing my finger. Get over it. This horse will probably be put down when it didn’t have to and the family is out tens of thousands of dollars when they didn’t have to be. That’s not right and the person responsible should absolutely be held accountable for this.

[cloudyandcallie]

@Equkelly

Uhh no, no, no. Nobody hunted anyone down on social media. This trainer was told by other professionals, the USDA, and jetpets over and over again to send the horse back. The HEAD VET of the freaking USDA told her himself. She was the one who insisted that she “personally believed” he would eventually test zero… based on what? Did she speak to a fortune teller? Or did she extensively study advanced micro biology or other veterinary related sciences? Does she have background in studying this disease or a background in agricultural bio security? Like what the hell was it that made her “personal beliefs” trump every other professional’s opinion? Did I miss something?

I don’t think I did. I think this lady thought she could stomp her foot and scream her head off on Facebook and the rest of the horse community would surely rally behind her. That’s a piss poor strategy when you’re dealing with the freaking USDA.

And now some of you are going to say we “hunted her down” on Facebook? NOPE. If you’re going to throw a hissy fit on Facebook and try to get the horse community to support you don’t be shocked when people call you out for your sh*t.

So yea… I am pointing my finger. Get over it. This horse will probably be put down when it didn’t have to and the family is out tens of thousands of dollars when they didn’t have to be. That’s not right and the person responsible should absolutely be held accountable for this.

you aren’t helping the horse or the teen.
your post is like those of someone who was just banned

[Equkelly]

@cloudyandcallie

you aren’t helping the horse or the teen.
your post is like those of someone who was just banned

I know I’m not. That battle is already lost, but if we identify how and why this went so wrong, then maybe it won’t happen to any other poor horses or families.

[RileysMom]

Antibodies can be finicky and can differ depending on the lot (they aren’t supposed to, but they do).

[caryledee]

@Equkelly

Uhh no, no, no. Nobody hunted anyone down on social media. This trainer was told by other professionals, the USDA, and jetpets over and over again to send the horse back. The HEAD VET of the freaking USDA told her himself. She was the one who insisted that she “personally believed” he would eventually test zero… based on what? Did she speak to a fortune teller? Or did she extensively study advanced micro biology or other veterinary related sciences? Does she have background in studying this disease or a background in agricultural bio security? Like what the hell was it that made her “personal beliefs” trump every other professional’s opinion? Did I miss something?

I don’t think I did. I think this lady thought she could stomp her foot and scream her head off on Facebook and the rest of the horse community would surely rally behind her. That’s a piss poor strategy when you’re dealing with the freaking USDA.

And now some of you are going to say we “hunted her down” on Facebook? NOPE. If you’re going to throw a hissy fit on Facebook and try to get the horse community to support you don’t be shocked when people call you out for your sh*t.

So yea… I am pointing my finger. Get over it. This horse will probably be put down when it didn’t have to and the family is out tens of thousands of dollars when they didn’t have to be. That’s not right and the person responsible should absolutely be held accountable for this.

She is doing a piss poor job of throwing a hissy fit on Facebook! I haven’t seen her post anything outside her own page. The Go Fund Me campaign has been listed several times on there as well but it wasn’t even public at first. It hasn’t popped up anywhere for me other than her own page. I didn’t see where a bunch of people told her to send the horse back from the beginning, only that they told her “this happens sometimes” after the first test. And reading from other people’s experiences on her page, it does appear that it is not all that uncommon for the first test to be positive.

I think it is very unfair to vilify her as much as has been done here. Many people turn to crowdfunding for things like colic surgery, pasture accidents, etc. If you are against it, scroll past and don’t contribute. But is it really necessary to judge to this extent?

[ynl063w]

@RileysMom

Just a thought from my days as a molecular biologist…if this happened to me, I would insist that subsequent assays use a completely different lot of antibody/or antibody from a different supplier. If they are using the same aliquot of antibody for every test, any potential cross reactivity will stay the same. Antibodies can be finicky and can differ depending on the lot (they aren’t supposed to, but they do).

I wouldn’t worry about this at all - we’re talking about the USDA, not a middle school science lab. Surely all of the raw materials/components used in the assay are delivered to the lab with a Certificate of Analysis, the lab likely does some of its own testing upon receipt of the materials, all lots of antibodies would be qualified prior to use, date of expiry of all materials would be documented on each test protocol as it is being performed, and assays should be run with at least one positive and one negative control. And presumably the raw materials used in tests for this horse have been used for testing other horses. If all of the horses tested in the same timeframe were suddenly popping positive after positive after positive results, sure that would be worrisome but I’m pretty sure the folks in the lab would pick up on that and investigate well before the results would end up being plastered all over social media by the owner of the horse.

[Cocorona]

Slight tangent here- but I keep seeing posters mention that the trainer is a fiduciary in this regard. She is not. Fiduciaries are a regulated group that are held to a best interest standard. As there is no governing body for horse trainers, there is no fiduciary duty. We widely accept that trainers should make decisions in the best interest of their client- but they do not have to. They do not even have to conform to a suitability standard. Are there negligence laws? Yes. Bad word of mouth? Yes. But we all know of situations where trainers did not act in their clients best interest and unless a civil suit was brought, there was no real recourse to the situation.

Fiduciary Standard: X and Y are the same in every way and in line with the clients risk tolerance, time horizon, goals, situation, and are suitable. X is less expensive than Y, fiduciary must recommend X to client. Professional must do what is in the BEST INTEREST of the client.

Suitability Standard: X and Y are the same in every way and are in line with the clients risk tolerance, time horizon, goals, situation, and are suitable. Professional may sell either to client.

Horses are not considered an investment vehicle in the way stocks and bonds are. This situation is truly unfortunate- but its another reminder to us all to be aware of who we do business with and to continue to educate ourselves as much as possible and not just take advice from the person with the pro card. And for the professionals here- to be as transparent as possible with your clients about your own experience, fees, and educating them along the way so you can make informed decision’s together.

[RileysMom]

@ynl063w

I wouldn’t worry about this at all - we’re talking about the USDA, not a middle school science lab. Surely all of the raw materials/components used in the assay are delivered to the lab with a Certificate of Analysis, the lab likely does some of its own testing upon receipt of the materials, all lots of antibodies would be qualified prior to use, date of expiry of all materials would be documented on each test protocol as it is being performed, and assays should be run with at least one positive and one negative control. And presumably the raw materials used in tests for this horse have been used for testing other horses. If all of the horses tested in the same timeframe were suddenly popping positive after positive after positive results, sure that would be worrisome but I’m pretty sure the folks in the lab would pick up on that and investigate well before the results would end up being plastered all over social media by the owner of the horse.

Excellent point.

[ynl063w]

@RileysMom

Actually—and I say this as a Ph.D. who did a postdoc at Harvard—it’s not as exact a science as you’d think. My lab once spent 60K on experiments with a weird batch of antibody. It happens. And the rabbit it grew in can affect a batch, quite literally. Not supposed to be the case but if we are talking about weird cross reactivity in an animal that does but actually the disease, it is possible.

Meh. Not impressed and still not concerned, for all the reasons already stated. Sorry.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@RacetrackReject

As for the military thing, I live an hour from post and own a service business that many military people seek out. There is not one single person who has contacted me that is in the military who did not ask for a discount because of their service. As a matter of fact, it is so predominant that it is a big discussion in our industry as it’s usually the first thing that people seeking our services ask- do you offer a military discount.

Thanks for sharing your insight and perspective with respect to service members who contact you in relation to your business, and inquire as to whether or not you offer a military discount. I’ll make sure to pass this along to my family member who lost both of his legs in a foreign conflict after volunteering to serve his country immediately after he graduated college because he believed it was an honorable choice to make during a time of war. If he ever decides to spend his hard earned money with your business… rather than making you uncomfortable or - God forbid - annoyed by inquiring about whether or not you choose to extend a discount to people who serve in our military… he will make sure to just point to the stumps at the end of his thigh bones where his knees used to be and instead say, “You’re welcome.”

Would that work better for you? What do your friends in the industry think about that? My family and I really value your insight.

One last thing… what particular post did you say you were located within an hour of, and what was the name of your business again?

[cloudyandcallie]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Thanks for sharing your insight and perspective with respect to service members who contact you in relation to your business, and inquire as to whether or not you offer a military discount. I’ll make sure to pass this along to my family member who lost both of his legs in a foreign conflict after volunteering to serve his country immediately after he graduated college because he believed it was an honorable choice to make during a time of war. If he ever decides to spend his hard earned money with your business… rather than making you uncomfortable or - God forbid - annoyed by inquiring about whether or not you choose to extend a discount to people who serve in our military… he will make sure to just point to the stumps at the end of his thigh bones where his knees used to be and instead say, “You’re welcome.”

Would that work better for you? What do your friends in the industry think about that? My family and I really value your insight.

One last thing… what particular post did you say you were located within an hour of, and what was the name of your business again?

isnt she just saying the horse’s owner is not doing anything that others don’t do? How about trying to save the horse and not attacking people? I always asked cops not to ticket me for speeding because of my profession. I knew service members who tried to get out of tickets because they served. No big deal. I never asked for discounts but if offered, I took them.

[cloudyandcallie]

@RileysMom

Actually—and I say this as a Ph.D. who did a postdoc at Harvard—it’s not as exact a science as you’d think. My lab once spent 60K on experiments with a weird batch of antibody. It happens. And the rabbit it grew in can affect a batch, quite literally. Not supposed to be the case but if we are talking about weird cross reactivity in an animal that does but actually the disease, it is possible.

This could be a contaminated batch. I think a different batch should be used.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@cloudyandcallie

isnt she just saying the horse’s owner is not doing anything that others don’t do? How about trying to save the horse and not attacking people? I always asked cops not to ticket me for speeding because of my profession. I knew service members who tried to get out of tickets because they served. No big deal. I never asked for discounts but if offered, I took them.

Thank you for your insight. My family and I value it. You’re right. I need to focus on important stuff like saving a horse who has failed to meet USDA standards in relation to a deadly zoonoticcdisease known as glanders. And this annoying persistent focus of mine over the impropriety of someone repeatedly mentioning their families service record in order to drum up support for a GFM account being used to cover expenses for a luxury pet is really no different than military personnel politely and discretely asking a business owner if they offer a military discount.

According to you, this is all no big deal. I’ll make sure to pass that on to my family as well.

And by the way, what is your job that entitles you to speed routinely? I’m truly curious. Since this is all analogous.

[IPEsq]

@Cocorona

Slight tangent here- but I keep seeing posters mention that the trainer is a fiduciary in this regard. She is not. Fiduciaries are a regulated group that are held to a best interest standard.

Some courts have disagreed with you. There are registered/licensed professional fiduciaries, but a fiduciary duty can arise in other situations. A trainer may or may not always owe a fiduciary duty to the client. In the case of a sale of a horse and especially if this trainer took any sort of commission, she surely does have such duty, and it carries an obligation to protect the interests of her client in using her experience/expertise in the industry. If she had any agent relationship with the seller as well (which would not be uncommon in the case of imports, trainers here having “partners” over there), then under California law, that would be dual agency which should have been disclosed to the client in writing. Florida has similar laws.

[Equkelly]

@caryledee

She is doing a piss poor job of throwing a hissy fit on Facebook! I haven’t seen her post anything outside her own page. The Go Fund Me campaign has been listed several times on there as well but it wasn’t even public at first. It hasn’t popped up anywhere for me other than her own page. I didn’t see where a bunch of people told her to send the horse back from the beginning, only that they told her “this happens sometimes” after the first test. And reading from other people’s experiences on her page, it does appear that it is not all that uncommon for the first test to be positive.

I think it is very unfair to vilify her as much as has been done here. Many people turn to crowdfunding for things like colic surgery, pasture accidents, etc. If you are against it, scroll past and don’t contribute. But is it really necessary to judge to this extent?

I’m not at all against crowd funding. I’m just against it in this situation. If it was as simple as a family lost 35k for a horse because of tragic and unlucky circumstance? Yea sure whatever I might pitch in. But this is a series of poor decision making that resulted in this bill being what it is. Trainer mcKnowseverything was the one who lead this family to believe that this horse would eventually test 0 on the cFt (because she personally believes so) even though vets, jetpets, and other trainers and probably lawyers all said otherwise. Go back to page 3 on post 117 and read the hissy fit OP posted on behalf of the trainer that she wanted us to share. This family is in the hole because someone really thought a temper tantrum on Facebook would either convince the USDA to change their protocols (lol) OR find someone’s rich uncle to dig them out (even bigger lol). I don’t think it is uncommon for the first cFt to be weird but this horse has been in quarantine since what? November? And we’re approaching February? THAT is what’s not right. A horse is going to be euthanized after being locked in a box for the last few months of its life, a family’s financial situation is ruined, and the kid is probably heartbroken. The trainer can take some heat on the COTH forums if it means that people will recognize how not to make an unlucky situation turn into a life-ruining one.

[Pennywell_Bay]

Virginia Horse Mom- you are confrontational and come off acting self righteous. You’ve made your point ad nauseam. People don’t have to agree with you nor do they have to divulge any information to you about their business or location.

You seem quite cool comfortable using YOUR family as a way to make your point. I find that interesting and wonder how they might feel, though it isn’t a GFM, their honorable service and horrible injury as a pawn to make your point? Over a horse. You have nothing to do with.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Pennywell Bay - I will extend you a simple courtesy that you obviously are unwilling to extend to me, and simply acknowledge that you are entitled to your own opinion. And we disagree. And I’m ok with that.

I’m very comfortable with my opinions, and what I’ve chosen to share about myself and my family. I am honestly sad at some of the opinions and attitudes you and others have expressed on this topic. But hey… we live in a free country, and you all are free to tell people like me… or the other poster who is currently serving in uniform who also weighed in on this… how we have this whole thing all wrong, and are annoying you, and a real drag, and coming off as overly self righteous in your opinion. And how I, in particular, should be … ashamed? … to have shared about my own family while trying to explain why these issues are a really big deal to people like me and many people I know.

Duly noted. There obviously is no good reason for the two of us to discuss this any further. Feel free to ignore me.