The other really good reason for taking a Hanoverian foal to inspection, in addition to the input on on the breeding, is that if you plan on selling the foal, it gets you pictures and video of your foal and mare turned out in braids and all spiffed up.
Here is a link to the Swedish Warmblood Association of North America (SWANA) and their inspection protocols (which correlate with those in Sweden).
http://www.swanaoffice.org/articles.aspx?cat=2
To answer your questions, YES, inspections CAN become political.
With SWANA, horses that do not make the cut are not accepted for registry and are not branded.
[QUOTE=Dutchmare433;8831995]
I understand that–I’ve been at keurings where mares didn’t get their Keur predicates for various reasons. Including: this mare is fine for riding but xyz conformation faults preclude her or her movement isn’t good enough. But those mares were all already registered with KWPN, and left without their Keur predicate, or keur eligibility, but left still registered etc.
My question was specifically for foals, who get registered at birth, then go to a keuring a few months later…what weight does elimination carry? Are they removed from all books or just dropped down to Register A or B? (I know some people just won’t bring foals to the keuring if they’re in an awkward stage, they can always get inspected at 1, 2, 3 years.)[/QUOTE]
With the KWPN, when born the foal receives either foal book papers, register A papers or register b depending on the status of the sire and dam.
When you take a foal to a keuring (only foalbook and register A are eligible), the foal is judged on the breed standard for both conformation and movement and is awarded either a first premium (orange ribbon) or second premium (red ribbon). Elimination simply refers to being eliminated from the class, it does not change its registration. Reasons for elimination might be lameness, major conformational flaws, abnormal movement, etc. Normally, breeders will not take a foal that they feel is not up to standard, so it is rather rare to see an elimination.
When the horse is 3 years or older, you then present it for inclusion in the studbook. There are no other requirements for entry with a horse with foalbook papers, but those with Register A papers need to complete some additional steps in order to be eligible for the year end awards. Usually, they need to meet the criteria not yet satisfied by the stallion (xrays, enodscopy for roaring, or sport results).
Again, a first premium orange ribbon and the ster predicate is the desired outcome - meaning they are at least 15.3hh and have scored at least a 70 for conformation and a 75 for either movement or jumping. A small percentage of mares with exceptional conformation (typically 75/80+ conformation) are then deemed keur eligible. They must pass a ridden test (IBOP) or have sufficient point in sport to earn their keur title. Passing an x-ray examination leads to the PROK title. If your mare has both her keur and prok predicates, then she is considered an elite mare.
Since the geldings are not bred, they can only earn a ster predicate (prok, ibop and sport too).
Stallions earn their predicates (keur, preferent) based on what they pass on to their offspring.
Broodmares can also earn two more predicates based on her offspring. Preferent is awarded to a mare who has produced at least three offspring that have gone on to earn either a ster, keur or elite predicate or an approved stallion. Prestatie is awarded to a mare with successful offspring in sport (different requirements for dressage, jumper, etc.)
[QUOTE=oldernewbie;8831712]
As the owner of a gelding, and an Arab at that!, I have not had much exposure to the whole WB breeding/inspection experience. I volunteered (it was a local barn) cause I really did want to learn more. Mission accomplished - and saw some very nice horses.
ETA: I would love to see Arab breeders adopt the inspection approach but oh boy! would that not ever fly! Maybe with the sport horse people but main ring halter folks never ever ever![/QUOTE]
Sport type Arabian breeders who want to partake of the inspection process have avenues to do so. They can present mares and stallions for breeding approval to a number of WB (and sport pony) registries which can provide insights for the breeder and serve as proof that they take sport horse breeding seriously. Stallions can be presented at whatever format of SPT exists (currently in limbo here in the US). Both US Shagya-Arabian registries (NASS and PShR) will inspect and grade Arabians – even if not intended for Shagya breeding.
There WAS an attempt to start a voluntary Arabian sport horse inspection system in the early 2000s, but it crumbled after a few years. (Here is the archived version of the website: A.R.A.B.S. )Leaving aside any difficulties that arose between various parties, the effort was hampered by lacking the gravitas of the established WB registry inspections. Part of what makes the WB system so respected is the depth of knowledge and proof of results from decades of inspections and performance testing. You can’t really pull that off well starting from scratch.
Presenting Arabians to WB/sport pony registries is only partly helpful for a purebred sport breeder because the evaluations are aimed at the goals of using Arabians within those registries rather than what is needed to produce better Arabian sport horses. The context is a bit different if one is using an Arabian base to produce the next generation of Arabians to excel in sport discipline competition and breeding than when seeking to infuse a dose of Arabian traits in a WB registry. An Arabian sport horse breeder isn’t selecting stock based on crossing on a WB base so the nuances of how to best complement a particular stallion or mare within Arabian sport horse breeding largely fall outside the scope of the WB inspection.
Using the Shagya registry inspections could potentially be a bit more helpful for an Arabian breeder focused on producing sport type Arabians since the breeds are more directly related and closer in type than Arabians and WBs are.
I came to Arabians FROM the WB world, so I absolutely appreciate the WB system. OTOH, in 2004 and 2005 I bred to an aged Arabian stallion that had broken vertebrae as a yearling and had a fusion/spondylosis in his lumbar area that prevented him from being ridden. He could never have passed an inspection or been eligible for breeding approval in the WB system. The son and two daughters by him that I obtained from breeding to him are among the very best in my little herd. The stallion son did very well at the 2015 70 day SPT, and the two mares have each produced very good foals for me. (Plus they are all fun to ride!) So as an Arabian sport horse breeder, I value the flexibility to use a variety of evaluation tools --including some aspects of the WB system-- for my breeding program.
As I understand it, the KWPN does foal inspections primarily to benefit the breeder for marketing purposes. If a foal doesn’t achieve premium status they are still registered with KWPN. A foal doesn’t have to go to an inspection with KWPN to be registered. Registration is determined by the status of the sire and dam. The important inspection for prospective breeding horses is the 3 year old inspection for mares and the stringent stallion approval process.
However, the ISR/Oldenburg registry is different. A foal cannot be registered unless it is inspected. It could be inspected as a yearling, but the requirements are different than for a foal. So every registry is different in their requirements.
And yes, the inspections can be political. At my first experience at an inspection with the first foal we bred politics reared its ugly head because the judge didn’t like the owner of sire of our foal. It was interesting and frustrating to say the least.
Just wanted to weigh in on the Arabian issue. As a person who grew up riding Arab crosses, I will ALWAYS have an interest in the breed. I am very appreciative of the efforts of folks who own Arab stallions who are good for sport, and have put in the time, energy and expense to take them to the Stallion Performance Test here in North America. For amateur owners and breeders who want to work through a Warmblood registry with inspections… But who also love Arabs… Its really nice to have a short list of neat stallions to consider using.
I’d love to see more information about how these guys do over the long run, and what impact that addition of performance tested Arab blood has 2 or 3 generations down the road. You can’t get to that place though, if you don’t have people willing to try an F1 cross… And having Arabian stallions who are performance tested makes the idea of the F1 cross much more attractive than it would be otherwise.
I believe both ISR/Oldenburg and the GOV require foals to be inspected to get registration papers. However, my understanding is that this is also for breeder education and to help the registry to keep track of what is being produced, not to determine if the foal’s quality warrants registration. I have never heard of a foal from previously approved parents being denied papers.
GOV definitely requires inspection for papers. However, it can be done subsequent to the suckling age, and if the parents are approved, papers will be issued.
[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8836553]
I believe both ISR/Oldenburg and the GOV require foals to be inspected to get registration papers. However, my understanding is that this is also for breeder education and to help the registry to keep track of what is being produced, not to determine if the foal’s quality warrants registration. I have never heard of a foal from previously approved parents being denied papers.[/QUOTE]
I think Old NA requires the foals be inspected - if presented after their year of birth, they are only allowed into the ISR book (lower book) no matter what the quality of the offspring. That is what they told us a few years ago when we looked at taking a 3 year old for inspection/registration. Breeder never got around to having it done 
[QUOTE=clint;8836606]
GOV definitely requires inspection for papers. However, it can be done subsequent to the suckling age, and if the parents are approved, papers will be issued.[/QUOTE]
Yes, although there is an extra fee to inspect yearlings and older. And while they aren’t keen about inspecting them over age 1, they will do it, esp. if the parents are already approved. They inspected a 4 y/o stallion at our inspection a few years ago. His breeder had never had him inspected, but his dam had been in the MMB for quite some years, and his sire was fully approved. They registered him, and he came the next year to a stallion inspection, but his owner declined to show him under saddle or free jump him, so the inspectors declined to look at him for stallion licensing.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8837099]
I think Old NA requires the foals be inspected - if presented after their year of birth, they are only allowed into the ISR book (lower book) no matter what the quality of the offspring. That is what they told us a few years ago when we looked at taking a 3 year old for inspection/registration. Breeder never got around to having it done :([/QUOTE]
No, I’ve had yearling and two-year old inspected, both were branded ONA. If the mare is MMB, stallion approved (not necessarily with ISR/ONA), then ONA papers. DNA required both parents. Yes, we live in the middle of nowhere.
Question… why are you talking about branding… My foal (she is a 2014 filly) was inspected and microchipped for Old NA or GOV (no idea what the difference is) … no branding… Makes me kind of sad, my first horse without a brand…
[QUOTE=Manni01;8839975]
Question… why are you talking about branding… My foal (she is a 2014 filly) was inspected and microchipped for Old NA or GOV (no idea what the difference is) … no branding… Makes me kind of sad, my first horse without a brand…[/QUOTE]
It sounds like in your case they didn’t give you a choice?
I had read somewhere that some registries now will give people a choice if they want the brand or not.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8840002]
It sounds like in your case they didn’t give you a choice?
I had read somewhere that some registries now will give people a choice if they want the brand or not.[/QUOTE]
Yes you are right, We did not get a choice. None of the foals in my inspection were branded. All of them were microchipped.
[QUOTE=Manni01;8839975]
Question… why are you talking about branding… My foal (she is a 2014 filly) was inspected and microchipped for Old NA or GOV (no idea what the difference is) … no branding… Makes me kind of sad, my first horse without a brand…[/QUOTE]
If she was microchipped and not branded, it was OHBS/GOV.
As for the difference, OHBS/GOV is the official North American division of the Oldenburg Verband. They follow the rules and policies of the Verband, the papers are issued through the Verband office in Vechta, the inspectors are all official representatives of the Verband and appointed/approved by the Verband breeding director, plus they try to have an inspector from the German office at most inspections. (I think there are only a few sites this year where someone from Vechta wasn’t present.)
ISR/ONA is a private registry owned by two German men - one residing in Illinois, and the other residing in Germany. It used to be affiliated with the Verband, but they went their separate ways in the mid-90’s. ISR/ONA trademarked the Oldenburg brand at that point, and OHBS/GOV cannot brand in the U.S. - which is why they microchip instead.
This may come off as completely ignorant… But in the age of microchipping and DNA, what is the purpose of continuing to brand? A simple visual cue as to which registry a horse belongs to? Tradition?
It seems like branding can lead to confusion in certain cases. Like the half brand thing RPSI did for awhile… And obviously, the Oldenburg NA vs. GOV brand. Just my opinion, but after reading about confusion and controversy with these different issues at different registries, shouldn’t a person always double check a horses actual papers with a registry to make it has full papers, parents were approved, and it belongs to the registry you think it does?
Thank you DownYonder!!
In Germany they tried to stop branding because it was considered animal cruelty. I think after going to inspections for 20 years, that microchipping is even more animal cruelty and also you need the right reader to read the chip.
My dogs are microchipped in Germany but in the US there are no readers for it so whats the use of it???
On the other hand, my 22 year old German riding pony is branded with a number. So you can alway track back her information, like age or even breeding records. The brand is still very clear. If you sell a horse and don’t tell anybody about the microchip it might never been read and the horse can get a new history… most of my horses have both chip and brand.
My question - why can’t “they” come up with a universal microchip!!! That would solve so many problems. If the computer industry can come up with a universal port plug, why can’t the electronics industry come up with a universal microchip? Just a pet peeve of mine. It would help solve so many issues - including horse show issues, horse rescue issues, horse theft issues, etc!
As for branding - every registry seems to do it a bit different. Some no longer brand - some of the American branches of the EU registries still brand or give the option. I personally prefer the “clean butt” look, but I know I’m in the minority in the US - most people want visible “proof” their horse is a Warmblood.
Interesting feedback on branding vs. microchip. I watched the branding of three foals at the inspection I went to this summer, and was surprised at how laid back it was, and how well the babies did. I had a mare I rode for awhile years ago with a really awful botched brand that always made me wince when I groomed her, so I guess I just expected it would be worse than it was.
Interesting people put so much value in the brand a horse has on it as proof of their “Warmblood” bonafides. I broke and started a very sweet and talented mare years ago that a friend had picked up from an estate sale of some farm owner who had passed away. None of the horses coming from that sale had papers… Some were nicer than others though. This particular mare was an obvious Appy Warmblood cross… But She had something that resembled a Hanovarian brand on her rump. I have no clue what it was, or who branded her or why, but it wasn’t an actual Hanovarian brand, just a REALLY similar looking H. I think she was eventually sold to the hunter market for a great profit. I always thought her brand a bit silly and odd, because she was so obviously half Appaloosa, she would have presented better with nothing at all, rather than looking like someone’s attempt at a scam…
I concur that microchipping is not painless. And it’s definitely a shame there isn’t more standardization.
[QUOTE=Virginia Horse Mom;8843257]
Some were nicer than others though. This particular mare was an obvious Appy Warmblood cross… But She had something that resembled a Hanovarian brand on her rump. I have no clue what it was, or who branded her or why, but it wasn’t an actual Hanovarian brand, just a REALLY similar looking H. I think she was eventually sold to the hunter market for a great profit. I always thought her brand a bit silly and odd, because she was so obviously half Appaloosa, she would have presented better with nothing at all, rather than looking like someone’s attempt at a scam…
.[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what the brand was, but it probably wasn’t a scam. RPSI and Old NA both accept just about any mare into their “lower books” and will brand the offspring. I have a friend who bred two Appy/Hanoverian crosses, and presented them to RPSI - both are branded. One was inspection champion, which upset a few of the breeders there 
The brand can be genuine - the horses are truly registered into those registries.
Thank you for the clarification! The people I knew were told “ISR” book by the registry - none of us did any research into it. Bloodlines and mare quality were sufficient to qualify for Main Book, stallion was approved, and since it wasn’t my deal, I didn’t delve into it in anymore detail…
