Warmblood inspections - some first time observer questions

[oldernewbie]

So I attended my first warmblood inspection this weekend. Very interesting, I really enjoyed seeing the horses and hearing the judge’s comments. Some questions:

1. What happens if the horse doesn’t make the cut? The inspection I went to was very small and the quality of the horses appeared to be good, so I did not get to see what happens when a horse or baby doesn’t make the grade. What will people do - try again another year, wait for a performance test or ???

2. Do warmblood breeders feel that the inspections can become political, like regular subjective horse show judging?

Curious what folks’ experiences have been. Thanks for taking the time to educate the newbie!

[Katona]

I entered my first warmblood inspection this year, so I feel like we’re in a similar boat.

1. For my inspection, there were horses that didn’t make the cut via either scores, or pedigree. These mares/foals were entered “recorded” into the pre-mare or auxiliary book. The idea being that they are judged, recorded, and their subsequent offspring have the potential to move through the registry’s books with careful breeding.

2. I think that many would argue that some registries are better than others for this. At the end of the day, I can only speak for myself in saying that I researched registries and judges, asked breeders for opinions, and went with the one I thought would be most fair to me and my mare. I also took distance into account.

At the end of the day, I think you have to be willing to accept that there are good and bad in every single registry. Depending on what your purpose is, some are going to be better than others…politics and all.

[Go_Fish]

I think that WB breeding, in general, is a step ahead of other types of “registries” in that they do require inspections. If your foal or horse doesn’t make the grade, then it just doesn’t. It’s probably a very difficult thing for a breeder to hear - a lot of thought, time and financial investment is required to get a foal to an inspection. Being told that your pride and joy doesn’t cut it must be heartbreaking.

However, breeds such as QH, TBs, Paints, etc., in my opinion, could learn a hell of a lot from the inspection process. Too much indiscriminate breeding and the majority of it shouldn’t have happened in the first place. Having to go through an inspection process prior to registration might just cut the men from the boys.

I haven’t seen politics play a part in the inspection process while I was actively sending horses but I stopped breeding several years ago. I didn’t breed for a long period of time so was not well known, was primarily breeding for myself and I did send my horses to a professional to show at the inspections. I DID think it was important to send my horses to be inspected. All that being said, I don’t think it makes sense for an inspector to play politics…but perhaps breeders with more experience than me can chime in.

[rjr]

As for what the owner/trainer does if the horse doesn’t make the cut: I think it varies a lot. Sometimes they believe that it is a quality horse, but didn’t make the cut due to being in an awkward growth stage, or did not show the true quality of the gaits due to tension, distraction, just didn’t trot, or immaturity. In these cases, they would probably try again a different year. If they think the horse showed it’s true colors and just didn’t make the cut, then they might not bother, or might try a different (less selective) registry if the horse is eligible in another registry. Of course it would also depend on the owners desires for that horse. If it is part of a breeding program, then it would be more important for the breeder to try to get the horse approved. If it is owned by someone who plans to keep it as their soulmate for life, then it might not matter much to them. Of course a lot can also happen in the upcoming year(s) before the next inspection. The horse may grow up better or worse than expected. If the horse sells to someone else with different goals, then the plan changes entirely.

As for whether it is “political” – I would call it “subjective” more than “political.” I don’t think it matters much who you are or who you know (it isn’t supposed to anyway). But it does depend somewhat on the preferences of the judge you get. At the inspections I have been to, the judges seem quite experienced, and are judging many more horses per year than your average DSHB judge. So, I would expect the judging to be more consistent than at most shows. But you will never take away the subjective aspect. Also, the various registries differ somewhat in how much they are looking for general “quality” vs. looking for a certain “type” - or what that “type” is.

[Manni01]

I have been attending warmblood inspections for the last 20 years (Oldenburg) and I am not really sure what it means “not making the cut”. A foal can either get a premium or not. So is getting not a premium …not making the cut??
And about mares to be presented I did see a mare in Germany being rejected in Oldenburg but only once. And the commission told the owner that he could breed her and present her again with the foal, and if they would like the foal they would accept her. After all its a registry for breeding and Oldenburg wants to produce good horses and if a mare does produce good foals so it doesn’t matter how the mare looks like.
So that would be my recommendation as well… I would present a mare only with a foal. because then the mare will be judged on the foal and less on herself…

And please consider also… These commissions have seen thousands of foals over the years… and probably also this year. They are extremely experienced and they are not interested in politics or owners. They recognize a good foal very easy… Yes sometimes they might have a growth spurt or maybe do not feel well on the inspection day. Thats why the owner should never be too disappointed about the result.

But I have to confess I learned a lot from all my inspections and it also trained me what you need to look for in a mare and in a foal. And although you invested a lot of time and money into mare and foal, you still need to be honest about everything. Breeding is very tough

[Dutchmare433]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8831410]
I have been attending warmblood inspections for the last 20 years (Oldenburg) and I am not really sure what it means “not making the cut”. A foal can either get a premium or not. So is getting not a premium …not making the cut??[/QUOTE]

So for KWPN, you can get First Premium (above breed standard), Second Premium (at breed standard), or get Eliminated. I’m not entirely sure what getting eliminated means… “Elimination – Horses may be eliminated if their conformation or movement precludes them from a first or second premium.”

I have no idea if this removes the foal from Foal Book registration entirely or drops it down to register A or B?

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Dutchmare433;8831460]
So for KWPN, you can get First Premium (above breed standard), Second Premium (at breed standard), or get Eliminated. I’m not entirely sure what getting eliminated means… “Elimination – Horses may be eliminated if their conformation or movement precludes them from a first or second premium.”

I have no idea if this removes the foal from Foal Book registration entirely or drops it down to register A or B?[/QUOTE]

Thank you. I have no idea about Dutch registries, but Oldenburg does not have this. They register every foal which is presented, if the mother and the stallion are approved. Very interesting to get to know the different rules…

[Dutchmare433]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8831464]
Thank you. I have no idea about Dutch registries, but Oldenburg does not have this. They register every foal which is presented, if the mother and the stallion are approved. Very interesting to get to know the different rules…[/QUOTE]

No problem! Hopefully someone who knows a bit more will chime in as to what happens to foals that get eliminated. For GOV, are there different levels of premium? Or is it just Premium and Foal of Distinction (or nothing)? If I remember correctly, Hano just picks one foal as the best of the inspection and otherwise accepts all presented.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Dutchmare433;8831468]
No problem! Hopefully someone who knows a bit more will chime in as to what happens to foals that get eliminated. For GOV, are there different levels of premium? Or is it just Premium and Foal of Distinction (or nothing)? If I remember correctly, Hano just picks one foal as the best of the inspection and otherwise accepts all presented.[/QUOTE]
It is a bit different in Germany and in the US.
I have never seen a foal of distinction in Germany. There we have Premiums, Hengstanwärter(potential Stallion candidate) and Auktionszulassungen (qualified for the Auction) The last 2 qualifications are not official levels of premium but somehow they are a bit higher then a simple premium.

And I don’t know anything about Hannover

[Dutchmare433]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8831478]
It is a bit different in Germany and in the US.
I have never seen a foal of distinction in Germany. There we have Premiums, Hengstanwärter(potential Stallion candidate) and Auktionszulassungen (qualified for the Auction) The last 2 qualifications are not official levels of premium but somehow they are a bit higher then a simple premium.

And I don’t know anything about Hannover[/QUOTE]

Interesting! Thank you, I’ll look more into it. It’s kind of cool to see how different registries handle things.

(That’s just what I remembered from the Hanoverian inspections I’ve been to.)

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8831478]
It is a bit different in Germany and in the US.
I have never seen a foal of distinction in Germany. There we have Premiums, Hengstanwärter(potential Stallion candidate) and Auktionszulassungen (qualified for the Auction) The last 2 qualifications are not official levels of premium but somehow they are a bit higher then a simple premium.r[/QUOTE]

Hengstanwärter may not be an “official level of premium”, but the title is printed on the colt’s registration passport. Not sure about Auktionszulassungen, though. I will have to check my horse’s passport - I know the stallion prospect designation is there, but can’t remember if the auction designation is on it.

Also, Oldenburg in the U.S. and Canada (OHBS/GOV) do name deserving colts as “stallion candidates”. And I know there have been some foals where the inspector announced, “If this foal was in Germany, we would want it for the auction.”

The Foal of Distinction title was originally developed as a way to award high quality foals that were not eligible for a Premium award (usually because their dam was not eligible for the Main Mare Book due to pedigree). However, the FOD is also now awarded to even premium foals - usually to the best foal of the inspection, or best colt and best filly.

[DownYonder]

As for horses “not making the cut” - for mares, I assume the OP is referring to mares that either don’t get accepted at all, or mares that don’t get accepted into the Main Mare Book. For the first, if a mare isn’t accepted at all - due to quality or pedigree (or both), her foals cannot receive registration papers from that registry (although some will give a foal a COP, if the sire is a recognized and approved stallion). In those cases, the owner is usually better off taking the mare to another registry where she might be accepted and the foal can receive full registration papers - although, if the foal is a colt that will be gelded, a COP is usually acceptable for most buyers, and it also will allow the horse to compete for registry awards (depending on the registry - some don’t recognize COP for their award programs).

For a foal that “doesn’t make the cut” - OP, are you referring to a foal that wasn’t invited back to the premium walk ring? Not sure which registry inspection you attended, but Oldenburg (OHBS/GOV) only accepts foals back for the premium walk ring whose dams are in the MMB. And then, of those foals, the inspectors determine the premium and foal of distinction award winners.

[oldernewbie]

It was a Hanoverian inspection with only 2 foals and 2 non-warmblood mares, so definitely not the same experience as an inspection with lots of horses of all ages. It was the first inspection held at this location and they’re hoping to have more horses next year. I thought they did a really nice job and I enjoyed talking to the judge and secretary at lunch too.

I was referring to non Hanoverian mares “not making the cut” since there seemed to be a score below which they would not be accepted. But it did also occur to me that there might be foals that did not receive a good score and then what would happen?

As the owner of a gelding, and an Arab at that!, I have not had much exposure to the whole WB breeding/inspection experience. I volunteered (it was a local barn) cause I really did want to learn more. Mission accomplished - and saw some very nice horses.

ETA: I would love to see Arab breeders adopt the inspection approach but oh boy! would that not ever fly! Maybe with the sport horse people but main ring halter folks never ever ever!

[Hunter_Mom]

[QUOTE=Dutchmare433;8831460]
So for KWPN, you can get First Premium (above breed standard), Second Premium (at breed standard), or get Eliminated. I’m not entirely sure what getting eliminated means… “Elimination – Horses may be eliminated if their conformation or movement precludes them from a first or second premium.”

I have no idea if this removes the foal from Foal Book registration entirely or drops it down to register A or B?[/QUOTE]

I was at a KWPN keuring a couple of weeks ago and a lovely mare was not accepted because she was under their height limit. It was my understanding she left with nothing.

[joiedevie99]

Mares can, and sometimes are, denied breeding approval with their own registry, or another registry, based on lots of things - including height, conformation, movement, etc. How each registry decides what constitutes failure varies - some have a minimum number of points they need to achieve, or “no individual score can be below a 5” rule, and many others.

I’ve never had experience with a registry that denied foals - meaning if the sire and dam had all of their approvals/fees paid/etc. - the foal got papers. That doesn’t mean the foal can breed, just that it is registered. If it’s a mare, it will have to be inspected again at 3+ years of age, where it could be denied breeding approval if it didn’t meet the minimum standards.

[clint]

[QUOTE=oldernewbie;8831712]
It was a Hanoverian inspection with only 2 foals and 2 non-warmblood mares, so definitely not the same experience as an inspection with lots of horses of all ages. It was the first inspection held at this location and they’re hoping to have more horses next year. I thought they did a really nice job and I enjoyed talking to the judge and secretary at lunch too.

I was referring to non Hanoverian mares “not making the cut” since there seemed to be a score below which they would not be accepted. But it did also occur to me that there might be foals that did not receive a good score and then what would happen?

As the owner of a gelding, and an Arab at that!, I have not had much exposure to the whole WB breeding/inspection experience. I volunteered (it was a local barn) cause I really did want to learn more. Mission accomplished - and saw some very nice horses.

ETA: I would love to see Arab breeders adopt the inspection approach but oh boy! would that not ever fly! Maybe with the sport horse people but main ring halter folks never ever ever![/QUOTE]

Hanoverian inspections don’t score foals. If the inspection is big enough to warrant it, they will award a top colt and top filly prize, but that doesn’t always happen. If both parents have been inspected and approved, foals can be registered without inspection.

Non-Hanoverian mares need to meet pedigree and inspection approval. They have to meet pedigree approval before being inspected, and need to meet a certain score before being accepted in the marebook.

FWIW, AHS will accept full Arabians into their studbooks. A half Arabian filly (out of an approved Hanoverian mare) was the top foal at the inspection I attended this summer.

[Dutchmare433]

[QUOTE=Hunter Mom;8831775]
I was at a KWPN keuring a couple of weeks ago and a lovely mare was not accepted because she was under their height limit. It was my understanding she left with nothing.[/QUOTE]

I understand that–I’ve been at keurings where mares didn’t get their Keur predicates for various reasons. Including: this mare is fine for riding but xyz conformation faults preclude her or her movement isn’t good enough. But those mares were all already registered with KWPN, and left without their Keur predicate, or keur eligibility, but left still registered etc.

My question was specifically for foals, who get registered at birth, then go to a keuring a few months later…what weight does elimination carry? Are they removed from all books or just dropped down to Register A or B? (I know some people just won’t bring foals to the keuring if they’re in an awkward stage, they can always get inspected at 1, 2, 3 years.)

[oldernewbie]

[QUOTE=clint;8831913]
Hanoverian inspections don’t score foals. If the inspection is big enough to warrant it, they will award a top colt and top filly prize, but that doesn’t always happen. If both parents have been inspected and approved, foals can be registered without inspection.

Non-Hanoverian mares need to meet pedigree and inspection approval. They have to meet pedigree approval before being inspected, and need to meet a certain score before being accepted in the marebook.

FWIW, AHS will accept full Arabians into their studbooks. A half Arabian filly (out of an approved Hanoverian mare) was the top foal at the inspection I attended this summer.[/QUOTE]

If the foals don’t need to be inspected to be accepted, why do people bring them to the inspection? Sorry for dumb question. Also, I didn’t realize that they weren’t being scored as I was the runner between the ring and barn so I missed part of the proceedings with the foals.

I knew Arabs would be accepted in some studbooks. It would be great if they had to be inspected to be accepted in the Arab studbook - that’ll be a cold day in h*ll!

[clint]

[QUOTE=oldernewbie;8832029]
If the foals don’t need to be inspected to be accepted, why do people bring them to the inspection? Sorry for dumb question. Also, I didn’t realize that they weren’t being scored as I was the runner between the ring and barn so I missed part of the proceedings with the foals.

I knew Arabs would be accepted in some studbooks. It would be great if they had to be inspected to be accepted in the Arab studbook - that’ll be a cold day in h*ll![/QUOTE]

The inspectors give a lot of information when they look at a foal. One can learn a lot going to inspections and just watching and listening, and if you are the breeder, getting input like that is very useful when picking stallions for the mare whose foal is being inspected.

[Marla_100]

My Hanoverian filly was taken to an inspection at 6-8 mo. old simply to get her out and about, get some trailering experience and to get her branded.
Some breeders believe a good first traveling experience is worth the trip.