Warmblood vs non movement (physically)

[Scribbler]

I believe the gaits in the front leg (and scope for jumping) can be influenced by the angle of the shoulder blade, but also by the length of the humerous, and the angle of the humerous. People don’t think about this bone a lot, because it is hidden inside the flesh. It corresponds to the upper arm in a human, from the shoulder joint back to the elbow.

The longer and more vertical the humerous at rest, the further forward the horse can move his knees.

I am around the low end of nice horses, but every once in a while I get to see the higher end. A couple of years ago I went to watch friends of friends at a schooling clinic jumping 5 feet. It’s the only time I’ve been at eye level, so to speak, up close, to horses working at that level (as opposed to being up in the bleachers). The horses definitely had shoulder configurations that were different from anything I’d seen before: the shoulder blade much more sloped back, the humerous longer and more vertical. Up to this point, I’d felt like I was struggling to see differences in shoulder slope between the horses I was familiar with.

I realize this thread is about dressage performance, but I think there are things that both top jumpers and top dressage horses would share, compared to average horses.

But it’s also true that a big, beautiful trot is the signature of a good harness horse. Some Standardbreds come with a natural trot that looks like it would be a huge winner in dressage, but then they don’t find canter easy, or collecting easy. They are more full steam straight ahead. So I assume one challenge is breeding dressage horses out of older harness stock would be keeping the trot, but adding on some ability to canter and collect. Warmbloods certainly don’t collect or turn or handle the way Iberian horses can, but then Iberian horses don’t have quite the size of trot of modern warmbloods.

The other thing that contributes to float is high energy. Even my Paint mare can passage, for about 30 seconds, when she’s first let loose with her friends in pasture!

[alteredcourse]

There are two pictures in the article below showing conformation of a dressage horse. You should be able to see immediately the difference between them (especially the 2nd picture) and a thoroughbred, quarterhorse, or paint.

Conformation 101

[RooMB4]

Thanks for all the replies and explanations. They are all great but are still missing what I’m curious about. GraceLikeRain I think understands what I’m asking. I want to know what physically makes a horse (usually a warmblood) have a springier gate than some other breed (Arabs have it but in a different sort of way). Here is a link to a horse who closest describes what I’m talking about as far as the way of going.

https://youtu.be/O_L4tcvl-lk

Is there something physically different like the angles of their hips, hocks, fetlocks, etc. Or perhaps the elasticity of the ligaments and tendons in their joints that enables they to build more kinetic energy and thus springing them off the ground higher when released. I know this is sort of a nerdy question!

Here is another example of this natural movement I’m asking about.

https://youtu.be/RNJ18lvZTXA

[RooMB4]

Thanks for all the replies and explanations. They are all great but are still missing what I’m curious about. GraceLikeRain I think understands what I’m asking. I want to know what physically makes a horse (usually a warmblood) have a springier gate than some other breed (Arabs have it but in a different sort of way). Here is a link to a horse who closest describes what I’m talking about as far as the way of going.

https://youtu.be/O_L4tcvl-lk

Is there something physically different like the angles of their hips, hocks, fetlocks, etc. Or perhaps the elasticity of the ligaments and tendons in their joints that enables they to build more kinetic energy and thus springing them off the ground higher when released. I know this is sort of a nerdy question!

[RooMB4]

Here is another example of this natural movement I’m asking about.

https://youtu.be/RNJ18lvZTXA

[J-Lu]

Dear OP,

I’ll give this a whirl. Yes, WBs have been bred for saddle use, farm use and carriage use since the 1900s. The European nations started breeding for sport horses after WW2 and they’ve paid VERY close attention to breeding for these traits. The WB of today is much different than the WB of 20 years ago (much heavier).

So, IMO, the dressage sport horse of today has an uphill build (withers higher than croup) with a neck that ties in very nicely to the withers and comes up and out and forward. It does not tie in too low. This neck set is very different from the TB or QH neck set, and enables a WB to naturally carry more weight “further back” than other breeds. It also connects the neck and withers and back better for “carrying” power, rather than “running” power. This allows them to naturally lift through the withers and the front end (in general, not all WBs can do this well). Also, they tend to have more of a sloping shoulder and a longer humerus than a TB or QH, so they generally (not always) can lift and reach better with the front end. Dressage horses tend to have longer radius than cannon bone/tibia versus metatarsus which promotes a stronger lever action. WBs also are bred to have “beefier” hind ends - more muscle with a somewhat sloping croup so they can flex their pelvis, articulate their hocks, and sit better than other breeds. TBs and QHs aren’t bred to sit down and carry weight for dressage or jumping. Then again, WBs don’t win the Kentucky Derby or Reining classes. WBs also tend to have a stronger loin than TBs. Together, this makes it so the kinetic energy is more “up” than “out” as compared to a TB.

American TBs are bred to gallop fast and long, and “pull” with their front end as well as “push away from” their hind end. European TBs are bred more for steeplechase and often have a better build for sport than American TBs (better angles, better hooves). Not always.

Arabs often have spring because they often have long pasterns and very upright necks and step well underneath themselves (a horse that can articulate the hind legs under the belly better can support the weight of the front end better), but they often (not always) don’t use their backs so well. Arabs are often a) halter bred for looks not movement or b) bred for Arab racing or c) bred for sport. There’s a reason why the Trakehner book only accepts TBs and Arabians as genetic influences.

That said, everyone is an individual. Some very springy WBs have “pathologically” long fetlocks that make them springy (lever action) but they may or may not stay sound over a lifetime of work. Many young WBs have fabulous springy gaits but they’ll never be able to collect enough and “sit”… or stay sound trying to do so… for upper level work. Many of these horses have terrible hooves or hocks. Note, many upper level horses are not “fancy” movers, but they are correct movers and stay sound. Also note, many people breed to young fancy movers who never make it to upper levels. “Big” movers are not necessarily good dressage horses.

Many WB jumpers have a straighter shoulder and hind leg,shorter humerus and would not make good dressage horses but are fabulous jumpers. Some WBs are prone to hock problems because they naturally weight their hind ends. Generally, WBs have to undergo a strict inspection process that looks at conformation, MIND, trainability, temperament, and ability to absorb training in a foreign environment. Those that excel in mind and body are bred.

In short, it’s the angles and weight placement/lever action. And brain. Yet, be aware that a great moving youngster may not be able to do collected work and may not stay sound with regular work.

[dressagegirl123]

Silly question, but what is the LS that the article is referring to? This is fascinating!

[snowrider]

As far as WB vs TB, well a lot of breeds like TBs have closed studbooks and a fairly narrow range of phenotypes and small genetic pool as a result. WBs though recently drew from all kinds of horses: cavalry remounts, carriage horse, endurance breeds, coaching horses, farm horses, riding horses, ponies etc. So there is far far more genetic variability there which has allowed the development of top horses in many sports as the types of potential available to work with as a breeder is much more. If you tried to develop a stud of TBs that moved with a lot of suspension. I’m not sure you could do that without running into genetic bottlenecks as many horse and dog breeds do. It’s simply not a heritable trait in enough individuals.

[SendenHorse]

I think LS- lumbar sacral

[beowulf]

the structures are different.

What makes a dressage horse move the way it does… genetics… obviously… but if you peeled back the flesh of, say, Valegro or Desperados and compared to say, Phone Trick (TB race stallion) or In Excess (TB race stallion) you would see easily the difference is all in the shoulder/humerus/radius (and the length of the forearm) and the pelvis-to-femur angle (and the LS placement).

I would not expect drastic differences in the shoulder angle so much as I would expect drastic differences in the slope of the humerus (and the angle of humerus-to-radius). The femur/stifle placement is very different as well.

The big, lofty movement seen up front is also due in part to elasticity – which IMHO is not so much ‘structural’ as it is bred. Many horse breeds do not need elasticity the way a dressage horse does.

Re: Uphill – it is not the relation of withers to croup… It’s the relation of elbows to stifle. All horses, from a skeletal standpoint, will have a lower set elbow - it’s just the way they’re built… But the more uphill movers typically have less of a slant… Plenty of horses are built “downhill” (croup-high) but move uphill.

Typically, the better movers seem to have some anatomical traits shared: more ‘acute’ angle in humerus-to-radius, with a longer radius, shorter cannon, 90 degree or more shoulder, longer back, very forward LS placement, steep angle in femur with a open angle from femur-to-stifle, and straighter hocks than what was once considered ‘ideal’.

Many of the better movers in the TB race world (Star De Naskra, Kitten’s Joy/El Prado (Sadler’s Well sireline), Stonesider, Louis Quatorze just to mention a few) do have some structural differences that IMHO do contribute to better movement.

The humerus/radius angle makes for a broader, bigger stride as well as more limb flexibility (folding) over fences – the longer radius makes for more reach within the stride; a sloping shoulder accentuates that reach. Forward LS is covered in the article listed above: open femur/stifle angle and slope makes for more reach and fold, and the ‘straighter’ hocks (which should really be called more open hocks) make for more angle/reach in the stride.

A very good example of a horse that demonstrates these structural traits is Orange Peel. Compare to modern jump sires like Navarone – then compare to modern dirt racing sires (ex: Dixie Union) to see the difference.

[Crockpot]

Spring is not the goal.

Suspension without engagement from behind and throughness - for want of a better term- is pepe le pew.

[MysticOakRanch]

Well, there is some good info here, but it is more then just skeletal. That is part of the problem - while you can look at how uphill they are (stifle to elbow), and how sloped their shoulder is, and where there point of hip is in relation to their LS, and you can see the longer forearm, the longer pastern, what you don’t see - is the soft tissue structures. And the power of the loin and hindquarters.

One more recently studied area is the “looseness” of the elbow - which is more about how it is attached then what it looks like. This has a huge effect on the front leg reach. Not all the WBs have the huge sloping shoulder, and some who do, don’t have the reach you would expect. Valegro is a great example of a horse who doesn’t have the long forearm, isn’t actually “uphill”, doesn’t seem to have the “ideal” conformation. But he has a very powerful hind end, and that “looseness” that is elusive to define.

Here is an interesting picture showing angles of Negro, Totilas, and Valegro - I don’t know who did this picture, but it is really interesting!

http://i.imgur.com/EKZcIL5.jpg

The research hospital in this region is discussing at the increasing incidence of neurologic problems in Warmbloods versus other breeds, and there is some discussion that it is partly just due to the “looseness” that has been bred into them, making them bigger, more supple, more elastic movers. No one can pin that down - yet. Sadly, they haven’t published anything yet, but when you talk to people who work there, they are concerned about that increase in elastic movement and Neuro issues. So it may be something that is being bred into the horse’s soft tissue - and it is a good thing until it is too much of a good thing?

Yes, you can look at the angles all day long. Last year, I went to a Symposium on analyzing angles and balance to identify a horse’s “abilities”, and it was interesting, but it wasn’t always a true predictor. And several years ago, I went through the DSHB Judging Symposium, and the faculty member said - before you give your final score and assessment, you better see the horse move - it isn’t always accurate to assess the still horse. It was so true! We saw a lot of demo horses, and they didn’t always “give” what you would expect based on their structure.

Sorry OP, this may not be what you want - but it is a combination of hard structure, soft structure, health of structures, and mind (if they won’t GIVE you what they are capable of, then you get what you get). And really all comes down to selective breeding for specific traits - something man is very good at doing. And man needs to have some responsibility in not “overdoing” that trait - because there can be too much of a “good thing”, as we see with so many breeds in so many species!

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8994925]
Well, there is some good info here, but it is more then just skeletal. That is part of the problem - while you can look at how uphill they are (stifle to elbow), and how sloped their shoulder is, and where there point of hip is in relation to their LS, and you can see the longer forearm, the longer pastern, what you don’t see - is the soft tissue structures. And the power of the loin and hindquarters.

One more recently studied area is the “looseness” of the elbow - which is more about how it is attached then what it looks like. This has a huge effect on the front leg reach. Not all the WBs have the huge sloping shoulder, and some who do, don’t have the reach you would expect. Valegro is a great example of a horse who doesn’t have the long forearm, isn’t actually “uphill”, doesn’t seem to have the “ideal” conformation. But he has a very powerful hind end, and that “looseness” that is elusive to define.

Here is an interesting picture showing angles of Negro, Totilas, and Valegro - I don’t know who did this picture, but it is really interesting!

http://i.imgur.com/EKZcIL5.jpg

The research hospital in this region is discussing at the increasing incidence of neurologic problems in Warmbloods versus other breeds, and there is some discussion that it is partly just due to the “looseness” that has been bred into them, making them bigger, more supple, more elastic movers. No one can pin that down - yet. Sadly, they haven’t published anything yet, but when you talk to people who work there, they are concerned about that increase in elastic movement and Neuro issues. So it may be something that is being bred into the horse’s soft tissue - and it is a good thing until it is too much of a good thing?

Yes, you can look at the angles all day long. Last year, I went to a Symposium on analyzing angles and balance to identify a horse’s “abilities”, and it was interesting, but it wasn’t always a true predictor. And several years ago, I went through the DSHB Judging Symposium, and the faculty member said - before you give your final score and assessment, you better see the horse move - it isn’t always accurate to assess the still horse. It was so true! We saw a lot of demo horses, and they didn’t always “give” what you would expect based on their structure.

Sorry OP, this may not be what you want - but it is a combination of hard structure, soft structure, health of structures, and mind (if they won’t GIVE you what they are capable of, then you get what you get). And really all comes down to selective breeding for specific traits - something man is very good at doing. And man needs to have some responsibility in not “overdoing” that trait - because there can be too much of a “good thing”, as we see with so many breeds in so many species![/QUOTE]

A very good post, and I agree with all of it.

One of the things I have enjoyed doing to develop my eye… is to look at stills of a horse… and then videos.

I find that most CANTER, FLF, New Vocation sites, etc, have stills and videos easily obtainable… WBs are a little harder to come by as most sellers are independent/private sellers that don’t always “get the memo” to set up their horse’s still so that it is conformationally accurate. Easiest, I think, is to look at stallions. Even then it can be frustrating how few SOs care to put an accurate/reliable conformation photo of their horse… Blu Horse does an exceptional job.

Let me tell you, I’ve looked and thousands and thousands of horses and there are still horses that surprise me when I see how they move. A still is not an accurate way to assess movement. I’ve learned to hold my judgment until I see them go first; think of how many of us would have passed Valegro by with his conformation…

[SnicklefritzG]

^^I even heard that Valegro failed his stallion licencing and was then gelding after that?

[Dressagelvr]

Lots of good information has been covered.

I will say that some WB registries (HAN is one) had separate riding, carriage, and work lines dating back to the 1700s.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8994954]
^^I even heard that Valegro failed his stallion licencing and was then gelding after that?[/QUOTE]

Totilas was rejected at stallion licensing! Although not gelded, and subsequently accepted based on his incredible performance record. Yes, it isn’t always about their “structure”.

[SnicklefritzG]

Totilas failed his stallion licencing too??

Any idea what the reasoning was?

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8994985]
Totilas failed his stallion licencing too??

Any idea what the reasoning was?[/QUOTE]

Actually, I think it is more accurate to say, he was not even presented as a youngster because he would not have passed. Sorry! And yet he turned out to be one of the greatest dressage horses ever. And his sire was one of the lower scoring boys in the group when HE was presented, yet he’s sired several successful offspring…

[MysticOakRanch]

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/11/salon-de-refuses-the-stallions-that-almost-werent/

Here is a great article - and it relates to the OPs question because it shows you can’t always judge them by conformation alone (or conformation and what they do on the triangle).

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

Warmblood breeding and gaits also follow trends. A lot of the older stallions had plenty of suspension in their gaits. Then we went through a period of breeding more TBy type movement - without the big suspension and elasticity.
Rubinstein https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb1ZujeqUmo
Sandro Hit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFMOSB4q6UI

Quaterback is totally different https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3LEZqTqIPk

While I was at Hilton Farm (November Hill Farm), you could see the fashion difference clearly. They had Letkiss with the big bounce, then moved into the less movement (IMO) with Antibes and Portofino, then back to the big suspension again with Liberty Gold.

Obviously, all of these horses are nice, and bred for similar structure, dressage, etc. You can see the difference in their offspring. The bounce is definitely genetic, but not necessarily conformation.