Warmblood vs non movement (physically)

Hello - So this may be a weird question but its been on my mind lately after being in the warm up area at a dressage show. What is physically different about many warmblood breeds that gives them a naturally springy movement and/or suspension in their gates vs an equally well built horse of another breed (say TB, connemara, etc).

I ask because I recently saw a 5 yr old WB in the warm up ring who had incredibly natural, springy, suspension at the trot and canter with very little effort so it got me thinking.

[QUOTE=RooMB4;8994233]
What is physically different about many warmblood breeds that gives them a naturally springy movement and/or suspension in their gates vs an equally well built horse of another breed (say TB, connemara, etc). [/QUOTE]

I think that: if you were able to pose the springy moving WB in the exact same pose as the well-built Connemara or TB or whichever other, and photograph both, and then, you were able to lay the outline or tracing of the horse from each photograph one over the other, the differences would be more readily apparent.

There is ā€œequally well builtā€ and then there is more specifically built for that springy movement. Looking at a lot of pics of breeds at rest and in motions, and a lot of slow mo video, will help train the eye, too. Hillary Clayton, the equine biomechanics expert, says slow motion and stop action video trains the layperson’s eye better than anything else, in evaluating what individuals do with their bodies in various gaits and moments.

There are several conformational factors at work including (but not limited to) length of leg, length of back, degree of uphill conformation, ability to tuck the croup, neck length and shoulder angle.

I think there is also a degree of innate willingness/instinct to move with springy steps that has been favored and therefore been bred into modern horses.

IMO a large part of the equation is that the well-built WB is able to bounce and a smaller but helpful part is that he realizes he can, and wants to.

[QUOTE=RooMB4;8994233]
Hello - So this may be a weird question but its been on my mind lately after being in the warm up area at a dressage show. What is physically different about many warmblood breeds that gives them a naturally springy movement and/or suspension in their gates vs an equally well built horse of another breed (say TB, connemara, etc).

I ask because I recently saw a 5 yr old WB in the warm up ring who had incredibly natural, springy, suspension at the trot and canter with very little effort so it got me thinking.[/QUOTE]

The WB hail from coaching horses…think of that movement in front of a 4-in-hand and you will have your answer.

The postillions invented posting for a reason…to get off the backs of those horses with big trots.

ā€œBack in the dayā€ (yes, I’m old) there were ā€œriding horsesā€ and ā€œother/work horses.ā€ Riding horses were known for their ā€œsmoothā€ gaits that were easy on the riders…those horses did not have the ga-boing trots you see nowadays in the dressage arena.

The Europeans made a marketing coup after WWII when they ā€œrepurposedā€ their larger breeds and packaged them as ā€œriding horsesā€ā€¦and this statement is made from someone who owned an ā€œold styleā€ Hanoverian (by Dynamo) who had an 11" cannon and wore #3 shoes…but by god, his trot bought me points at shows.

No . This is incorrect.

I am genuinely confused, not trying to pick a fight, but what Pluvinel has said about warmbloods has always been my own understanding of their development. What is incorrect about what he/she has posted?

[QUOTE=Crockpot;8994286]
No . This is incorrect.[/QUOTE]

This is the typical answer of someone who doesn’t want to admit to the work-horse history of a lot of the European WB breeds.

As the owner of a very well-bred Hanoverian, (my horse was half-brother to Dollar Girl, Nick Skelton’s top money winning show-jumper mare) I researched their history…and rest assured they were indeed descended from work horse.

Dating back to the 1700’s to the unification of the German city-states, to the times of Bismarck and Kaiser Wilhem, each state (Hanover, Oldenburg, Holsteiner, Wurtemburg…etc) had a ā€œstate studā€ (in Verden for Hanoverians) that stood top stallions.

Each state had a ā€œmissionā€ for what sort of horse to produce…remember these were the equivalent of the Humvee…so you needed everything from a light personnel carrier, to an animal that could pull a heavy gun.

The stallions were offered to cover the farmer’s mares…with the conditions, that the horses were to be confiscated for war (eg., the movie War Horse).

After WWII, with the horse cavalry now obsolete, the Germans started to introduce lighter breeds (TB, Anglo-Arabs) to lighten these work horses into lighter ā€œriding horses.ā€

Books have been written of this history…which can’t be covered in a post.

I know most off the top of my head about the Hanoverian…but just know that there are many TB sires, (Laurie’s Crusader, Pik As) who established key lines that lightened the WB breeds.

If I have time, I will find more…All those ā€œRā€ WB’s (Ramiro, Ratina Z) date back to an anglo-arab called Ramzes.

Sunflower - a quick search to verify my own understanding of the history shows that various European breeds of horses where bred as carriage and other type of working horses ā€œback in the dayā€. As other transportation took over, then more the riding/pleasure horse thing.

In the brief look at Trakehners I saw no reference to carriage use but rather Cavalry.

[QUOTE=2tempe;8994333]
Sunflower - a quick search to verify my own understanding of the history shows that various European breeds of horses where bred as carriage and other type of working horses ā€œback in the dayā€. As other transportation took over, then more the riding/pleasure horse thing.

In the brief look at Trakehners I saw no reference to carriage use but rather Cavalry.[/QUOTE]

The Trakehner was unique vs ā€œotherā€ WB breeds. The Trakehner was considered a ā€œriding horse.ā€ It was the ā€œofficer’s horseā€ in the German horse cavalry…and has a relatively closed stud-book admitting anglo-arabs to add ā€œbloodā€ to the breed.

My understanding is that the German WB is developed from the cavalry, multi-purpose, cannon pulling horse by introducing lighter, hot blooded horses.

Back then there was not horse transportation as we know it so each region had its stallion station where local farmers took their mares. In typical German fashion records were kept. The names of the regions represent modern horses, i.e. Hannover, Westphalia, etc.

Back in the day, many were camped out behind from their pulling requirements,
many were thick, coarse, heavier horses with little spark and a duller ride.

Then, through the selective breeding process, more attention was made to produce the lighter, better moving, athletic horses and these horses were bred to others similar and they improved by breeding the best to the best over years.

Then attention was turned to ā€˜interior qualities’ for trainability, ridability, etc. to produce the ever-evolving wonderful horses of today.

Specialization has produced horses that were better at Dressage, Show Jumping, Carriage Driving etc.

Quite amazing what has been done. We will have to wait and see how far all this goes before the pendulum has to start to swing the other way for soundness, extremism, or any other qualities that may need to be fixed, such as has happened in Arabs, QH’s, dogs…

My wb has much smoother floatier paces than my tb. Same as the medium level horse I rode, very easy to sit. I know tbs aren’t bred for comfort but in my experience warmbloods aren’t more uncomfortable than the average horse. Admittedly these are more modern types so maybe sittability is being taken into account!!!

Quote: This is the typical answer of someone who doesn’t want to admit to the work-horse history of a lot of the European WB breeds. End quote

No . No .no

I am as familiar with the history as you are - maybe even moreso…

The movement the OP was asking about is not the same as the coach horse work horse front end movement as you suggested in earlier post.

Quote: Think of that movement in front of a 4-in-hand and you will have your answer. End quote

No. here is where we disagree. It comes from the engagement behind, the tucking of the pelvis… fluid movement through the body- all developed through wb breeding over many years.

People who equate the modern wb with coach horses are poorly informed.

Air time can be correct, or not.

ā€œspringā€ can equal/ translate into a loose back, nice hip lowering, lifted sternum…but not always.

Many horses show with a locked back, and are like sitting on a 2 x 4 but FLASHY!

so confo isn’t always indicative of correct movement. We have seen powerful horses be too much to collect.
I have a hunch, just my own hunch, that horses have different kinds of muscle tone and that allows ease of movement. I can feel differences in the back, its really quite pronounced (Massage therapist). Its why I think some breeds are choppier and locked.
(This is a really hard subject to discuss for me, many many variables).

A dressage horse is a combo of good work ethic, no hinderances, no baggage, and ability to collect and be ā€œshapedā€. Some horses who should be able to collect physically just can’t take that pressure/ are clausterphobic.

Interesting subject though! for sure…

Yes, basically that is it in a nutshell, but much careful breeding to bring the WB to the modern, lighter, hotter horse that you see today. The original European riding horses were actually bigger horses, but also big moving - they were closest to the Friesian that you see today. Deb Bennett has done much research on the many types and breeds, and has pointed this out in her research. Those horses were bred to carry knights and engage in warfare. And cross bred with lighter style horses to create ā€œcarriageā€ horses, Those carriage horses eventually (through many centuries and an industrial revolution and careful breeding) became our Warmbloods of today.

If you go to the All Breed Pedigree data base - there are photos of some of those older stallions that were in the original ā€œregionalā€ registries (those regional registries became the Hanoverian, Westfalian, Oldenburg and other Northern European registries of today), you will see some very drafty looking horses - they look like pulling horses. It is amazing how much the horses have changed in a single century!

Argh - posted before I was done…

Anyway, you do see that lofty movement in some other breeds - and usually breeds that have some ā€œdrivingā€ breeding (such as the Friesian, and some of the fancy pony breeds and some Arabians and Morgans). And you do see those horses sometimes in the FEI levels as well. However, the Europeans have purpose bred for that movement more then other registries - and as a result, you see if more often in the Warmblood. It has been bred that way - that is what people do - they selectively breed to create specific characteristics.

As a fan of the TB, and to share what this great breed has contributed…here is a list of famous TB sires in current jumping lines
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/JumpSires/JumpShowroots.html

Furioso’s most influential Anglo-Norman stallion sons were Mexico (1956) and Furioso II (1965), a highly successful sire in Oldenburg and Hanover, while his daughter Tanagra B was the dam of Jalisco B, and his granddaughter Quenotte was the dam of Cor de la BryĆØre, a main influence on modern Holsteiner breeding. Seventeen of the top 100 show jumping sires of the 1990s descend from Furioso.

From the early 19th century onward breeders in Holstein were focused on producing elegant coach horses. The first studbook for the Holsteiner marshes came into being in 1886, a period of intensive consolidation, based primarily on sire lines which had been established with thoroughbred and Yorkshire Coach stallions. The most prominent of these were the lines of the Yorkshire Coach stallion Brillant (1842), which was known as the Achill line, and of the English thoroughbred St Fagans (1862), which was known as the Ethelbert line. When the smart set began to use motor cars instead of coaches, Holsteiner breeders began to focus on the production of agricultural work horses, but when the plough horse was supplanted by the tractor in the 1950s, the number of registered Holsteiner broodmares shrank from approximately 10,000 to about 1,300. At this point the Holsteiner breeders’ association made the policy decision that henceforth they would concentrate on the production of better than average show jumpers - the only German studbook with such a clear focus on show jumping. To this end, they decided that the best way to do so was by acquiring the type of stallions which were used as hunter sires in Britain and Ireland, and within the next decade almost thirty thoroughbreds took up station in Holstein.

Cottage Son (1944, died 1964) by Young Lover out of Wait Not, by Cottage, was the first of these stallion imports, having been purchased in England in 1959. He had a real steeplechaser pedigree, being by a son of Son-in-Law out of a daughter of Cottage, one of the greatest National Hunt sires in the 20th century. Moreover, Cottage Son’s third dam Clonkeen was by the champion National Hunt sire Red Prince II. Another interesting aspect of Cottage Son’s breeding is that he had Son-in-Law in the second remove of his pedigree and Marco in the fourth, as did both Furioso, mentioned above, and Bright Cherry, dam of the great steeplechaser Arkle. Cottage Son had already established an excellent reputation in England as a good sire of hunters and eventers before his purchase to Germany. His best-known British-bred offspring was the eventer Cottage Romance, with whom Michael Bullen came 4th at the Rome Olympics. Sadly, Cottage Son only spent four seasons in Holstein, before his untimely death in 1964. In Holstein, his male line has always hung by a fine thread, where its most prominent representative is Capitol I (1975). However, the Cottage Son male line thrives in Holland through his grandson Joost (1968). More important still is Cottage Son’s influence through his daughters, with Valine, dam of the super Euro-sire Ramiro Z (1965), and Viola, dam of Lord (1967), the most prominent.

In all, Cottage Son makes fourteen appearances in the pedigrees of the leading show jumping sires of the 1990s. Among the leading show jumpers of the 1990s, Operette la Silla (1984) is inbred 4 x 4 to Cottage Son, Carthago Z (1987) is linebred 4 x 5 x 5 to him, and Calvaro Z (1987) and Cento (1989) are linebred 4 x 5 to him. All this is amazing in view of the short time which Cottage Son spent at stud in Holstein.

Ladykiller (1961), by Sailing Light out of Lone Beech, by Loaningdale, came to Holstein in 1965, and immediately established one of the studbook’s strongest sire lines. Thirty-five of his sons were licensed as sires, among whom the most outstanding were Landgraf I (1966) and Lord (1967). Even though Ladykiller had done nothing of note on the racetrack, he had excellent conformation and a pleasant temperament.

Anblick (1938) by Ferro out of Antonia, by Herold, was of an earlier generation than Cottage Son and Ladykiller, and stood in Holstein from 1953 to 1964, after having stood for eight years in Hanover.

You guys can click on the link and read more about the importance of the TB in refining the WB in most of the registries in Europe…

AHH Crockpot - Yes, of course. I, for one, didn’t quite read your whole sentence…:smiley:

And from what I’ve learned, please correct me if I’m wrong, Trakehners are a ā€œbreedā€, while other European WBs (ISRs, Oldenburgs, SWBs, Zweibruckers, etc.) are horses that belong to registries, with looser requirements for admission.

Does anyone have any skeleton outlines or youtube videos that they feel are strong visuals? I am fairly confident in my ability to identify structural faults. However, like the OP I struggle to understand which combination of structural strengths lends itself to the loft seen and desired in the ring.

What specific traits predispose a horse to have lofty gait as opposed to a longer sweeping gait?

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;8994448]
Does anyone have any skeleton outlines or youtube videos that they feel are strong visuals? I am fairly confident in my ability to identify structural faults. However, like the OP I struggle to understand which combination of structural strengths lends itself to the loft seen and desired in the ring.

What specific traits predispose a horse to have lofty gait as opposed to a longer sweeping gait?[/QUOTE]

This video may not be as indepth as you are looking for but it compares a well built warmblood to a bit of a school horse type (pretty is as pretty does).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSC2eMN5t7M

The person seems pretty knowledgeable, though I was looking for a video by Richard Shrake as I have seen him give great talks about conformation and how it effects gaits.