Warmbloods...breeds and lines for dressage with good brains?

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=HSS;8581051]
NoDQhere- I respectfully disagree.

Otherwise why would we breeders spend oodles of $$ getting our breeding stock approved (50% ridability) and be so selective about who we breed our mares to if it just doesn’t really matter?

You can go to BLM and pick up a mustang for $250.00 if that’s the case.

Not saying there isn’t variability in breeding- lord knows there is! But a well bred youngster isn’t that much of a huge crap shoot. If it doesn’t like jumping, there’s dressage. If it doesn’t like dressage, there’s jumping. Very few horses are going to be such PITA’s that they won’t do anything at all…and that’s also training, not breeding.

So, rather than discuss every single exception to the rule, let’s give this writer some good guidelines in our very picky breeding programs. Otherwise why bother if you can’t get at least an 80% shot at producing a good tempered youngster with athletic ability?[/QUOTE]
Speaking from experience here - mine has been similar to NoDQHere’s - one of the nastiest horses I ever rode was Donnerhall / Weltmeyer. Absolutely dirty. He wasn’t the only dirty horse from that combination I rode, either. There were three at the barn’s university and all of them were dishonest and donated because they just could not be trusted U/S.

NoDQHere presents an interesting point - if you only focus on specific lines, you can miss a great part of the population and the horse you’re looking for may very well pass under your nose simply because you’ve narrowed the criteria too far.

Since OP is not aiming to go to the Olympics, no, I don’t think pedigree is important in this case. Instead of what lines to focus on, I’d be focusing on type that you want. By the time they’re three a good horse person with a good eye will be able to tell if that’s the type of horse they want in their program - OP mentions nothing about her capabilities or preference as a rider beyond “she’s not after Hungarians” - why is that? Hungarians tend to be lighter in type and more forward thinking IME - does OP need a kiss and cluck ride instead?

There is much more than pedigree that determines a horse’s disposition and much more than raw talent that determines how far up the levels a horse will go.

This is so very true – for all of the hundreds of horses breeders produce for “UL contention” what percentage of them actually makes it to the top? A very slim, almost discouraging number – and some of those at the top weren’t even purpose bred for that in mind… So much more of it is about the individual horse than the papers. SO many of the stallions now seem to be said to be “easy rides” or “very rideable” - but by who? Seems to me that they are rideable for pros but that does not always hold true for ammy riders… A lot of amateur riders can’t handle these horses and honestly most of the WBs I meet these days are hotter than your average TB…

I second the suggestion into looking for Trakehners or even one of the spanish breeds. Since it sounds like you are looking for something to bring along to enjoy at your own pace I think you’d be surprised how many nice spanish or TK horses are out there…

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=HSS;8581051]
NoDQhere- I respectfully disagree.

Otherwise why would we breeders spend oodles of $$ getting our breeding stock approved (50% ridability) and be so selective about who we breed our mares to if it just doesn’t really matter?

You can go to BLM and pick up a mustang for $250.00 if that’s the case.

Not saying there isn’t variability in breeding- lord knows there is! But a well bred youngster isn’t that much of a huge crap shoot. If it doesn’t like jumping, there’s dressage. If it doesn’t like dressage, there’s jumping. Very few horses are going to be such PITA’s that they won’t do anything at all…and that’s also training, not breeding.

So, rather than discuss every single exception to the rule, let’s give this writer some good guidelines in our very picky breeding programs. Otherwise why bother if you can’t get at least an 80% shot at producing a good tempered youngster with athletic ability?[/QUOTE]

It isn’t exceptions. There are few horses that are so prepotent in the inheritance of their traits that you can say with 80% certainty that they are not suitable to this OP. Especially when dealing with lines instead of say, the sire. A line carries the name but a ton of other genetics to the point that the name line is a minority of genes present.
AND as breeders, in breeding top horses there is a huge range of opinions as to the best lines. If you are a Dutch breeder, you probably have a very different view of the Dutch lines as opposed to someone that only breeds Hanoverian.

And any lines that produce top horses have a huge amount of trainability and should not be dismissed based on probably less than 20% that are not suitable.

There are very few well known lines that I wouldn’t look at. Better advice would be to use well known and good breeders to find a young horse. They have done most of the ground work for you in terms of picking the right types. There is NO way you can learn everything you need to know about the WB from a thread or even a year of threads.
It takes a lifetime, so in respect of that knowledge, pick horses bred by people that have invested their time into the subject and have a good reputation. Any one can buy a expensive horse and breed it to another expensive horse. The art lies in the knowledge that comes from experience.

So if you want to find some nice horses, find some good breeders and let them worry about the “lines” that go into the final product.

[Mistysmom]

There are so many variables in producing an FEI dressage prospect that go well beyond just bloodlines as there is good and bad in every bloodline. Of course, the older you buy the less risk you will have. Some of the horses overall personality and temperament can be significantly influenced by their life experiences (good or bad). The quality of early training and how it is continued makes a huge difference as well. Bottom line, no matter how you go about it, it will be a significant gamble and a reputable breeder and or trainer is really the best place to start…

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=MojitoMare;8572560]
Thank you stoicfish. That is Wistar. My trainer rides a Wistar at Grand Prix and he’s amazing. Trail rides on the buckle and totally unflappable. My trainer often teaches kids on him. She says he got most of his traits from his TB dam, and she’s not around any more. So I can’t make a copy of him, lol.

My biggest concern is how to evaluate the temperament of an unstarted horse. I figured if I had some good blood lines to look for I could start there.[/QUOTE]

I will tell you as a breeder it’s not easy to determine what a horse’s temperament UNDER SADDLE will be till they are going u/s. Very often the behavior on the ground doesn’t not reflect their attitude under saddle.

Bloodlines will often give some indication, but often NOT. I have 2 fillies o/o the same dam (a Weltmeyer/Bolero) mare. Weltmeyers are known for not really being the easiest horses, especially when they are young.

I bred both of them to Sandro Hit sons with jumper dams. One of the youngsters was sold to a pro who calls her “a complete worker bee.” She absolutely LOVES her job, LOVES to work and LOVES to show. Her very first show ever was a big one at KHP (a very busy venue) and she was a rock star, all things considered.

The other filly will not turn three till June, but so far she shows the same disposition: a strong desire to have a job, to engage with people and to DO something.

It is one of the risks in buying an unstarted youngster; you really don’t know what you are getting till you start riding them…in terms of disposition, gaits, etc.

Many a horse has shown world class gaits at liberty & totally loses those qualities once they are u/s.

BTW, both these fillies are on the smaller side. The oldest was just sticked by her owner (she will be 5 in May) and is just 16hh now.

Another lady I know just bought a San Amour (by Sandro Hit)/Rubinstein mare at a German auction and she praises this mare’s disposition to the skies. BTW, San Amour (by Sandro Hit) got a 9.5 for rideability.

You would be surprised now many nice horses are in the PNW…personally I would agree that you need to #1) not “over horse” yourself by picking an animal that will be too advanced for your skills. IOWs, a more experienced rider might be able to get all sorts of great things from a horse that will not tolerate the mistakes & fumblings from a less accomplished rider. #2) Prioritize your needs. Pedigree is an interesting part, but better to just evaluate the horse in front of you.

You didn’t mention your current skill level, but it’s important to match the horse to the rider…it’s a partnership. I can think of literally DOZENS of cases where a rider “fell in love” with a fancy horse and ended up never being able to actually RIDE them. The trainer rode them, because they were too much for the owner.

So you may end up needing a “in the middle” type horse for a while.

BTW Wistar is not really “Hungarian”. He is only 1/8 per his pedigree. The rest is Hanoverian (Weltmeyer), Oldenburg & TB. Weltmeyer pretty much built that breeding program & it was extremely successful here in the PNW for many years.

[4wdNstraight]

MojitoMare, you sound a little bit like me. I bought a 2 year old in 2009 as my first dressage bred WB. I was an event rider turned dressage rider, and a amateur to boot, but had started all my own horses before. I am 5’3, so i bought the smallest WB of the ones I looked at. D/W lines.

I researched all the bloodlines, and felt well prepared. My mare was sweet on the ground when I looked at her. She was a difficult young horse, the hardest I had ever worked with. She did not want to work, was fussy, sticky, very alpha etc.

Fast forward to now and she is a pleasure to ride, and is preparing to do the PSG. She is really enjoying the work, and has the aptitude for the P’s. I have a GREAT trainer, who can get anything to work!

In order to hedge your bets, find out the rideability of the dam. If she was only a broodmare, then see how the rideability of the mares’ other offspring. If the stallion is well known for rideability then all the better. Also, don’t get lured into a huge trot. All you need for FEI is 3 good gaits. The bigger, the harder to collect, JMHO.

I wouldn’t change my journey for anything, but it was fairly rocky for a while. I’d love to do it again, but would definitely buy something with proven rideability on both sides of the pedigree. That said, I don’t think it is so proven as we would like to think. The safest way to hedge your bets is to buy something already started.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=HSS;8581051]
NoDQhere- I respectfully disagree.

Otherwise why would we breeders spend oodles of $$ getting our breeding stock approved (50% ridability) and be so selective about who we breed our mares to if it just doesn’t really matter?

You can go to BLM and pick up a mustang for $250.00 if that’s the case.

Not saying there isn’t variability in breeding- lord knows there is! But a well bred youngster isn’t that much of a huge crap shoot. If it doesn’t like jumping, there’s dressage. If it doesn’t like dressage, there’s jumping. Very few horses are going to be such PITA’s that they won’t do anything at all…and that’s also training, not breeding.

So, rather than discuss every single exception to the rule, let’s give this writer some good guidelines in our very picky breeding programs. Otherwise why bother if you can’t get at least an 80% shot at producing a good tempered youngster with athletic ability?[/QUOTE]

I certainly didn’t say pedigree didn’t matter. It does, but so do many other things. I have offended many people when I “preach” purpose bred rather than the Mustangs and OTTBs that have saturated the market.

Meisterwind, a purebred Trakehner produced very rideable horses out of virtually any mare. They had a ton of talent, but also possessed an almost freaky ability to “read” the rider and adjust themselves to that rider. Many of our mares are daughters and grand daughters of his and they are producing the same rideability. That is what our market needs because many of our buyers are AAs.
We’ve also found the Pros appreciate the same things that the AAs like.

[MojitoMare]

Hi All,
Thank you so much for all of the responses. I didn’t mean to start an argument. I was just trying to educate myself a little about what is out there, before I go blindly shopping around. Right now, I have a little paint mare (I guess as far as paints go, she’s not that little, about 15.3) that I am riding at 3rd level. I’m hoping to earn my bronze on her this year. She may go 4th level, but I think anything higher than that is going to be hard for her.

Also, she is 19 years old, and I’m trying to plan for her eventual retirement. I’ve been saving up for my next horse and have a little nest egg that will stretch farthest for me if I buy a foal, yearling or unstarted youngster. I’m hoping to let the little one mature while I’m still riding my current horse.

I am working with a trainer and plan to continue with her after I purchase my new horse. She’s aware and supportive of my plan. I’ve been riding her grand prix schoolmaster some and it is amazing how different he feels than my mare.
The reason I stress that I’m looking for ammy friendly is because I’ve had a bad experience in the past with a bolter. I’m over it, but would prefer to avoid that type of behavior in the future. And yes, I know that bloodlines are no guarantee against that type of thing. I was just looking for somewhere to start.

I’m also sorry if I offended anyone with my comment about the Hungarians. We just happen to have a lot of them in this area. I think they were the fad here for a while and some people just bred them willy nilly. Not that they are bad horses. But I do have some friends who ride them and some of them have turned out to be really, really hot. Of course, some of them are really nice, like my trainer’s horse. They just aren’t really my cuppa, and that’s just a preference of mine.

[Linda]

Hi - the horse I bought is turning 10 this yr. His name is WildCard. Bought him when he was about 6 months old. TB mare and Wolkenzauber as the stallion. Love the paint color. He really stands out !

He was a wild guy when he was young - so that part of his name fit him. I have started a lot of youngsters but this guy was really tough. Very athletic so he could do almost any gymnastics he wanted. I finally gave in and sent him out for training for about 5 months. Best decision I made. I now have him home and have my trainer school him. I ride him in lessons. He is SO much calmer now that he is older. But he is still able to spin around in an instant. We just keep working away!

[EponaCL]

A friend of mine has a three yr old son of Definer star, named Defeining Gravity that she needs to sell. he is out of a daughter of Cabaret and has a really lovely disposition, good gaits and will mature 15.3 -16 hands. He has been saddled and sat on but is just being started to be lightly ridden. He might fit your needs very nicely. Good luck in your search.

[RunningwaterWBs]

I think it’s pretty hard to argue with the consistency of Donnerhall offspring in dressage.

[khall]

There are some horses that are just born broke. Not much fazes them and they are easy peasy to put US. I have one that was started late, 6, that the first trot US our next door neighbor (a tree farm) was moving trees with their skid steer, she never batted an eye. Love this mare, 1/2 TB, 1/2 Han, G line Han, love those old line Hanoverians.