Warmbloods...breeds and lines for dressage with good brains?

[MojitoMare]

Hi All!
I’m looking at buying my next dressage horse at the end of the year. I’m wanting a warmblood with potential for FEI levels, and I’m wanting to buy a yearling to unstarted 3 year old.

 I'm just starting to do my research.  I've never owned a purpose bred or warmblood before.  I don't know what the main differences between the warmblood breeds are, or which ones are known to be more ammy friendly.  Are there certain lines I should be looking at for having good brains?  And any breeders you recommend?  

 I'm in the PNW, and we have lots of Hungarians here, but I don't think that is what I'm after.  I have lots of friends that ride Wistars, and they seem to take a lot of their personalities from the dams (I don't have a mare to breed, I want something already on the ground).  And there are also a lot of HS So Rare progeny and they seem to be hotter, just in my own opinion.  

 There also seem to be a lot of really big horses out there.  I'd say I'm looking more for something that will mature 15.1-16.2 ish. I also prefer mares, if that makes any difference. 

 Anyone have any ideas, opinions, recommendations for me?

Much thanks.

[stoicfish]

So there are lines that are know for being easier than others. But the reason they are “easier” varies. Some are less sensitive or not as hot or calm on the ground. It is hard to know what is friendly to any one person.
I wouldn’t worry so much about the lines as the horse in front of you. Do research about the sire and ask the breeders how the other offspring of the mare did under saddle before you buy. Buy from a reputable breeder.

Is this Wistar? http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/hs+wistar

W-line are super talented and smart with a huge ego. Maybe not for everyone but the above horse is mostly Tb.

[MojitoMare]

Thank you stoicfish. That is Wistar. My trainer rides a Wistar at Grand Prix and he’s amazing. Trail rides on the buckle and totally unflappable. My trainer often teaches kids on him. She says he got most of his traits from his TB dam, and she’s not around any more. So I can’t make a copy of him, lol.

My biggest concern is how to evaluate the temperament of an unstarted horse. I figured if I had some good blood lines to look for I could start there. I don’t even really know where to start looking. I know I have lots of time to figure it out.

[Nadia1990]

If you looking for FEI ability with a good brain you can not go past Donnerhall. I would want this very close on either top or bottom. Rubenstin, Grundstein and Florencio also tend to give very good minds. I would try to stay away from Sandro Hit or Jazz blood if your looking for an easy temperament

[MojitoMare]

Thank you for that input, Nadia. I’ll check those names out.

[HorseKrazy]

Have fun and enjoy the search! I would do what you are doing by asking questions and clearly defining the type of horse you are seeking. When looking at them so young, it can be hard to truly evaluate their temperament and trainability. You will need to look to the dam and what she and her line produce and then to the sire for the same things- of course that research should be performed after you have seen the actual product in front of you!

when I am horse shopping with my coach for prospects (usually hers) she will send me videos and pictures of potential horses and then asks me to delve into the pedigree. I find that kind of research can be really fun and informative. For dressage, in particular, look for an engine (strong hind end conformation) that can carry and look for clear gaits. Then trainability, money and hard work are going to be the keys to getting you to the top

[2tempe]

[QUOTE=Nadia1990;8572615]
If you looking for FEI ability with a good brain you can not go past Donnerhall. I would want this very close on either top or bottom. Rubenstin, Grundstein and Florencio also tend to give very good minds. I would try to stay away from Sandro Hit or Jazz blood if your looking for an easy temperament[/QUOTE]

I have a US bred Oldenburg mare w/ Donnerhall grandsire and Grundstein grandsire, both on dam side. On her sire’s side Iroquois is the sire, and one grandsire here is Diamont

Both her sire and dam made it to Grand Prix, and her temperament is lovely - close to zero spook, good work ethic, though not the most forward thinking. She was just about to do PSG when she had two displacements w/ surgery in less than a year, and some follow up health problems. (luck of the draw, not related to bloodlines, lol) She topped out at 16.2 hands.

OP - Sadly there is not a huge supply of smaller warmbloods. I tried a lovely trakehner mare under 16 hands who did not vet, and currently own and show a Lusitano who is 15.3 hands. He is my dream horse in every way and for an AA, very competitive.

[MojitoMare]

Thank you HorseKrazy and 2tempe for the advice. I’m trying to enjoy the search but also feeling pretty overwhelmed at this point. Good think I have plenty of time. And lots of people are being kind and helpful.

[Nootka]

Have you looked into Weser-ems (German Riding Ponies) at all? There are some nice ones that my end up 15ish hands

Looked at Warmblood-Sales.com?

fillies
https://www.warmblood-sales.com/SearchResult1.asp?DressLevelTrain=%&EventLevelTrain=%&HuntLevel=%&JumpLevel=%&Gender=Filly&BreedID=%&sHeight=15&tHeight=16.1&Color=%&gAge=1980&lAge=2020&Registered=%&hPrice=101&lPrice=100000000&State=%&Country=%

Mares
https://www.warmblood-sales.com/SearchResult1.asp?DressLevelTrain=%&EventLevelTrain=%&HuntLevel=%&JumpLevel=%&Gender=Mare&BreedID=%&sHeight=15&tHeight=16&Color=%&gAge=1980&lAge=2020&Registered=%&hPrice=101&lPrice=100000000&State=%&Country=%

[HSS]

Nadia is so right- You cannot go wrong with Donnerhall and W line cross.

A good way to find good youngsters is to contact stallion owners- of stallions you are interested in finding offspring from. Edgar Shutte is President of the American Hannovarian Society, and stands several good dressage stallions at his farm- Wild Dance and Rubignon, both well known producers of great tempered and talented offspring. He is an absolute fountain of knowledge about bloodlines and offspring. Google Rainbow Equus.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

OP, I feel like we have similar thoughts! I bred my 16’1 1/2 hand mare last year to a son of Donnerhall/World Cup (Weltmeyer’s sire) with similar goals (breeding for something capable that I will enjoy riding). I’m hoping the foal finishes around 16’2" tops (sire was 16’3"). I don’t need a 17 hand horse.

Good luck in your search!

My friend has a British Riding Pony /warmblood cross that ended up around 15 hands. He may not do GP, but she has a blast with him. I think the breeder was shooting for a large pony hunter in that case, but he got too big.

[MojitoMare]

Thank you for your responses, Nootka, HSS and TrotTrotPumpkin. TrotTrotPumkin, what stallion did you breed your mare to, if you don’t mind my asking.

Also, can anyone tell me the proper etiquette for inquiring about horses when there are no prices listed on the website? I’d hate to insult a breeder by calling about their horses, only to find out their asking price and my budget aren’t even on the same planet…

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=MojitoMare;8574452]
Thank you for your responses, Nootka, HSS and TrotTrotPumpkin. TrotTrotPumkin, what stallion did you breed your mare to, if you don’t mind my asking.

Also, can anyone tell me the proper etiquette for inquiring about horses when there are no prices listed on the website? I’d hate to insult a breeder by calling about their horses, only to find out their asking price and my budget aren’t even on the same planet…[/QUOTE]

You can really only ask. I would simply inquire for more information and the asking price for any horses you are interested in. Most sellers will “justify” their price with some more details, or you might be surprised (prices for young horses are low right now. My breeder just discounted a coming yearling sport pony who was top gold premium at her inspection and is out of a VPrSt mare to $2500, so you never know)

[Dressagelvr]

I’d stay away from most Weltmeyer lines, they can be spicy.

Stallions by Florestan, Hohenstein, and Rubenstein can be added to the Donnerhalls for general rideability. It is still a major crapshoot, though, because youngsters who seem so calm on the ground can be tough to ride and the reverse holds true too.

Dauphin is now standing in Canada and he’s known for passing good brains. Lots of good deals in Canada w/the exchange rate these days.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8574687]
I’d stay away from most Weltmeyer lines, they can be spicy.

Stallions by Florestan, Hohenstein, and Rubenstein can be added to the Donnerhalls for general rideability. It is still a major crapshoot, though, because youngsters who seem so calm on the ground can be tough to ride and the reverse holds true too.

Dauphin is now standing in Canada and he’s known for passing good brains. Lots of good deals in Canada w/the exchange rate these days.[/QUOTE]

And that is the issue with generalizations of bloodlines. You might pass up looking at a great horse. Weltmeyers are known for being hot but many are extremely talented and very trainable.
I think like the Trakehners, it is their intelligence that give them a bad rap. There are some really nice stallions by Welt. that throw very trainable offspring, so second generation. I have also met some offspring of some of the Dutch stallions that are known for being hot…and they are dolls. And there are some R-line horses that are not good minded and there issues with some horse with Donnerhall in the pedigree because he is one of 8 or 4 in the pedigree and the other horses had more influence, for example.
So I really wouldn’t generalize or rule out a well bred horse based on the pedigree alone. It is hard enough to find a good horse with talent at a decent price AND that matches up with you and that will be harder to find if you narrow that search based on bloodlines and stereotypes.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8575421]
And that is the issue with generalizations of bloodlines. You might pass up looking at a great horse. Weltmeyers are known for being hot but many are extremely talented and very trainable.
I think like the Trakehners, it is their intelligence that give them a bad rap. There are some really nice stallions by Welt. that throw very trainable offspring, so second generation. I have also met some offspring of some of the Dutch stallions that are known for being hot…and they are dolls. And there are some R-line horses that are not good minded and there issues with some horse with Donnerhall in the pedigree because he is one of 8 or 4 in the pedigree and the other horses had more influence, for example.
So I really wouldn’t generalize or rule out a well bred horse based on the pedigree alone. It is hard enough to find a good horse with talent at a decent price AND that matches up with you and that will be harder to find if you narrow that search based on bloodlines and stereotypes.[/QUOTE]

This is so true. One of the nicest, kindest horses I’ve ever known was 100% Trakehner and 100% trustworthy regardless of rider ability. And a Rotspon, Weltmeyer who was super talented, rideable, and cooperative. And one of the rankest, plus unsound, was a Donnerhall.

There is much more than pedigree that determines a horse’s disposition and much more than raw talent that determines how far up the levels a horse will go.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8575421]
And that is the issue with generalizations of bloodlines. You might pass up looking at a great horse. Weltmeyers are known for being hot but many are extremely talented and very trainable.
I think like the Trakehners, it is their intelligence that give them a bad rap. There are some really nice stallions by Welt. that throw very trainable offspring, so second generation. I have also met some offspring of some of the Dutch stallions that are known for being hot…and they are dolls. And there are some R-line horses that are not good minded and there issues with some horse with Donnerhall in the pedigree because he is one of 8 or 4 in the pedigree and the other horses had more influence, for example.
So I really wouldn’t generalize or rule out a well bred horse based on the pedigree alone. It is hard enough to find a good horse with talent at a decent price AND that matches up with you and that will be harder to find if you narrow that search based on bloodlines and stereotypes.[/QUOTE]

This is so true. One of the nicest, kindest horses I’ve ever known was 100% Trakehner and 100% trustworthy regardless of rider ability. And a Rotspon, Weltmeyer who was super talented, rideable, and cooperative. And one of the rankest, plus unsound, was a Donnerhall.

There is much more than pedigree that determines a horse’s disposition and much more than raw talent that determines how far up the levels a horse will go.

[Linda]

I bought my warmblood as a 6 month old. He’s now 10 and 17’2. I bought him from Cocolalla creek in Idaho. they have been the breeder of the yr in dressage for a couple of yrs. The top stallion was Wolkenzauber. My guy was a bit spicey as a youngster but has settled down as he matured. Nice horse. Good gaits. Fun to ride.

[Nootka]

OHHH Linda… who did you buy?

[HSS]

NoDQhere- I respectfully disagree.

Otherwise why would we breeders spend oodles of $$ getting our breeding stock approved (50% ridability) and be so selective about who we breed our mares to if it just doesn’t really matter?

You can go to BLM and pick up a mustang for $250.00 if that’s the case.

Not saying there isn’t variability in breeding- lord knows there is! But a well bred youngster isn’t that much of a huge crap shoot. If it doesn’t like jumping, there’s dressage. If it doesn’t like dressage, there’s jumping. Very few horses are going to be such PITA’s that they won’t do anything at all…and that’s also training, not breeding.

So, rather than discuss every single exception to the rule, let’s give this writer some good guidelines in our very picky breeding programs. Otherwise why bother if you can’t get at least an 80% shot at producing a good tempered youngster with athletic ability?