Warning: Reactions from Zimectrin Gold Wormer

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=JB;8224636]
I don’t need to have personal experience - first- or secondhand - to know that inadequate water intake is a major cause of colics because those who have access to way more horses and much more diagnostics have already done the research to prove the link.

I don’t need to have personal experience to know that withholding forage for hours at a time, day after day, is a significant factor in causing ulcers.

I don’t need to have had a horse who got ulcers because he was on bute, to know that NSAIDs are a major contributor to ulcers.

I don’t have to have personal experiences with X to know that the research out there proves that X has a significant link to Y practice/management/equipment/etc.

We KNOW that healthy horses with healthy immune systems take care of many parasites very well on their own. We know adults nearly always develop life-long immunity to ascarids, never to have a problem with them again. We also know that tapeworms don’t fall into that immunity situation.

I don’t know why no personal experience with a problem means the problem doesn’t exist.

And for the record, I am fully aware that horses need some level of parasites to keep the immune system functionally optimally, so no, I’m not remotely " super-skeeved-out at the thought of ANY parasites whatsoever"

Where you/have you lived, such that tapes have never been an issue? There are areas of the country where they aren’t a problem. Mine is not one of them.

You do what you want to do. I like to put the facts out there for anyone else to make up their own mind. I don’t trust most vets as far as I can throw them on being knowledgeable enough about parasites in horses, not when 80% (at least) of the people I talk to have vet telling them “just rotate dewormers every 6-8 weeks” :no: And I for SURE don’t trust most horse owners to have the foggiest about this, not when they are quick to buy the cheap “year long deworming package” that rotates dewormers every 8 weeks and sometimes isn’t even enough chemical for their 1400lb horse :no:

Top AA circuit vet? So? That’s supposed to mean they are on top of the parasite ballgame? Like they’re on top of feet?[/QUOTE]

So, what you’re saying is you HAVE no personal experience. Except at cut-and-paste and Google.

Gotcha.

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=Warmblood369;8223900]
Oops you made a grammatical error…
Now yes you have excellent ideas regarding contacting suppliers to stop carrying the product and I thank you for that. But despite how much money you think is appropriate to fight for what’s right, we will continue.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure if an extra word is really a “grammatical error” but no skin off my nose…I’m not trying to get the attention of a company that posted nearly 40 BILLION in revenue in 2013.

Rcloisonne has some good points about Merial’s potential ability to change the formula.

It’s good to understand who you’re fighting. This is Merial’s parent company:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanofi

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8224876]
So, what you’re saying is you HAVE no personal experience. Except at cut-and-paste and Google.

Gotcha.[/QUOTE]
Do you think maybe the reason she doesn’t have personal experience is because she takes proper care of her horses? Should she let one die just to prove her argument to you? Do what you want with your own horses, but don’t chastise others for not putting their head in the sand and saying it hasn’t affected me so who cares. Our responsibility as animal caretakers is to ward off as many preventable things as possible, not just sit back and put out fires as they occur in my opinion.

[Simkie]

Well said, Laurie.

I’m curious why Lady E thinks tapes weren’t a problem before praziquantel came on the market. We just used a double dose of…Strongid, was it? prior to that. Treating for tapes was still advised then, at least by the vets I used…

[JB]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8224876]
So, what you’re saying is you HAVE no personal experience. Except at cut-and-paste and Google.

Gotcha.[/QUOTE]
Ah, so to make you happy, I need to not kill tapeworms to…what? Have a horse die? Not have a horse die?

Your logic makes no sense at all. What other proven, scientific advice do you think is BS because the repurcussions haven’t happened to you?

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8224916]
Well said, Laurie.

I’m curious why Lady E thinks tapes weren’t a problem before praziquantel came on the market. We just used a double dose of…Strongid, was it? prior to that. Treating for tapes was still advised then, at least by the vets I used…[/QUOTE]

^^ And perhaps she did use a double dose of strongid. I imagine it still is effective, it’s just easier to use a product with praziquantal. And in some climates, not here, tapes life cycle is not possible.

JB-I read your post#39 and reflect that it must be the result of a very bad day, because as it stands it is a stunning biased statement about the intelligence of veterinarians in general, and the knowledge base of many of the posters.

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=JB;8224636]
I don’t need to have personal experience - first- or secondhand - to know that inadequate water intake is a major cause of colics because those who have access to way more horses and much more diagnostics have already done the research to prove the link.

I don’t need to have personal experience to know that withholding forage for hours at a time, day after day, is a significant factor in causing ulcers.

I don’t need to have had a horse who got ulcers because he was on bute, to know that NSAIDs are a major contributor to ulcers.

I don’t have to have personal experiences with X to know that the research out there proves that X has a significant link to Y practice/management/equipment/etc.

We KNOW that healthy horses with healthy immune systems take care of many parasites very well on their own. We know adults nearly always develop life-long immunity to ascarids, never to have a problem with them again. We also know that tapeworms don’t fall into that immunity situation.

I don’t know why no personal experience with a problem means the problem doesn’t exist.

And for the record, I am fully aware that horses need some level of parasites to keep the immune system functionally optimally, so no, I’m not remotely " super-skeeved-out at the thought of ANY parasites whatsoever"

Where you/have you lived, such that tapes have never been an issue? There are areas of the country where they aren’t a problem. Mine is not one of them.

You do what you want to do. I like to put the facts out there for anyone else to make up their own mind. I don’t trust most vets as far as I can throw them on being knowledgeable enough about parasites in horses, not when 80% (at least) of the people I talk to have vet telling them “just rotate dewormers every 6-8 weeks” :no: And I for SURE don’t trust most horse owners to have the foggiest about this, not when they are quick to buy the cheap “year long deworming package” that rotates dewormers every 8 weeks and sometimes isn’t even enough chemical for their 1400lb horse :no:

Top AA circuit vet? So? That’s supposed to mean they are on top of the parasite ballgame? Like they’re on top of feet?[/QUOTE]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :encouragement:

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8223559]
This has been going on for over 10 years[/QUOTE]
My horse had a reaction in 2004 so yes, for sure over 10 years.

I have to assume that the OP’s push now might have something to do with a horse the OP knows having a reaction or the fact that this is running around facebook like it is a new thing.

@Scaramouch;8224103

And most people that have a history of using the product with no adverse effects aren’t going to stop until they see it with their own eyes.

I would guess that those who have horses who do not react are not really at risk since their horses do not seem to be sensitive to whatever it is that is an issue.

[JB]

@merrygoround;8225016

^^ And perhaps she did use a double dose of strongid. I imagine it still is effective, it’s just easier to use a product with praziquantal. And in some climates, not here, tapes life cycle is not possible.

She’ll have to answer that, but the statement that she’s never treated for tapes unless absolutely directed by a vet (I wonder why the vet said to?) tells me she didn’t use even that. And yes, thankfully, that double dose pyrantel pamoate (STrongid paste) is still effective against tapes.

JB-I read your post#39 and reflect that it must be the result of a very bad day, because as it stands it is a stunning biased statement about the intelligence of veterinarians in general, and the knowledge base of many of the posters.

It’s not about intelligence, it’s about education (or lack thereof).

It is 100% a fact that MANY vets still recommend the ancient, problematic deworming every 8 weeks and rotate to “not create resistance”. Fact. It seems slowly, very slow, more are becoming educated enough to at least understand that FECs are important. Then the trick is getting them to understand the importance of an actual count, not just on a scale of 1-4 (or whatever it is).

And feet? OMG. Again, lack of education. Right on this forum we see over and over horses’ feet that their vets have not even blinked at, which are LTLH or bullnosed or just wildly overgrown.

so no, not a bad, day, just observations based on years of observing how vets deal with parasites and feet, which is often with far too little knowledge.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8223799]
You “don’t have deep pockets” but you want to go after Merial IN COURT?!

Focus your efforts on getting the people who supply it to stop selling it. Start a petition to get Dover to stop carrying it. Or Valley Vet. Or Jeffers. Or ANY big supplier! Target one first, and then go after more.

Merial may start to pay attention if their larger sellers start saying no. Unlikely they’ll even think twice about your Facebook page. Unlikely it will even even turn up on their radar with the spelling error.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely.

I know from experience (work related) that the best way to influence a big company (or an entire industry) is via a market campaign. If you are genuinely interested in getting this product off the market, your best chance of success is with a grassroots market campaign. Flood suppliers with e-mails and petitions to get them to stop carrying it. Take out ads in equine publications (like those freebie ones that are always on a rack at the door of feed and tack stores.

Class-action suits are primarily revenue-generating operations for attorneys and I’m always suspicious of them.

[wildlifer]

[QUOTE=JB;8224636]
I like to put the facts out there for anyone else to make up their own mind. [/QUOTE]

The rest of your post was great as well, but just wanted to quote that to say thank you. And that is why I hang on to my vet with grabby hands, because he always has the cutting-edge info, stays on top of the research, & his dad was vet/breeder, so he literally has a lifetime and then some of “sample size” on which to draw.

I do appreciate the OP; I was not aware of this issue. I have used Zimectrin Gold in my program for ~8 years, but only once per horse per year & it was my choice; I’ve not had any reactions, but as a biologist, I’m well aware of the issue of sample size. We have massive resistance issues here, pyrantel is worthless, generic ivermectin is akin to “spitting in your horse’s mouth,” I believe were vet’s words. He does not use ivermectin at all on his own horses when he does worm them (if you have your own clinic, those fecals are easier, LOL).

I just brought my horses home last year, so I’m working towards a testing-based management program, but since I’m, er, at work during work hrs & the clinic is not on my route, it’s a slow process. However, both horses got their first negatives EVER this spring after being on MY pastures, managed MY way, woot!!

I’m hoping to be able to reduce wormer frequency with a closed herd on my own property over time, along with the innumerable other projects. But I appreciate this info very much, there’s only so much a person can keep track of on their own, sigh.

[SMNG]

Back in 2009, we dewormed all of the horses in our barn with this product. 8 out of the 10 horses in the barn developed large ulcers in their mouths - I have and will never use this product again. The BOs daughter worked for Mariel too and they didn’t do anything. Horses were all fine, but I’ve made it my choice to never use this product.

[concerned4horse]

Another Zimecterin Gold Reaction- Please help!

I just became a member of this site due to this thread and others on this topic. My horse had a severe mouth reaction to Zimecterin Gold dewormer a week ago. Much swelling and it is still there- poor guy. He is as normal of a horse as they come. I consider myself fairly informed, but did not know about the reactions before or I NEVER would have given it to him. I am worried sick about it. My question is for ANYONE who has had experience with this. Please help!! Vets are at a loss & didn’t even know about it (hence recommending this product to me). People who have experienced it are my best resource, and this site has the most information about the reactions, and for the longest time. I do know of the Facebook site about the reactions and it was helpful, but most of the cases there are very recent (sadly enough) and I’d like to hear about older cases and as many cases as I can.

PLEASE help and let me know if your horse(s) reacted and what their status was in the long-term. I am all too wary that the chemical burns in his mouth could have done something internally and I’d love to hear some stories of hope where horses were just fine for years after the reaction with no internal consequences. However hopeful I may be, I will NEVER use this product again. The side effects are REAL and so painful to watch your horse go through! Thank you COTH for being such a good resource! You are truly helping horses and horse owners!

[concerned4horse]

Another Zimecterin Gold Reaction- Please help!

I just became a member of this site due to this thread and others on this topic. My horse had a severe mouth reaction to Zimecterin Gold dewormer a week ago. Much swelling and it is still there- poor guy. He is as normal of a horse as they come. I consider myself fairly informed, but did not know about the reactions before or I NEVER would have given it to him. I am worried sick about it. My question is for ANYONE who has had experience with this. Please help!! Vets are at a loss & didn’t even know about it (hence recommending this product to me). People who have experienced it are my best resource, and this site has the most information about the reactions, and for the longest time. I do know of the Facebook site about the reactions and it was helpful, but most of the cases there are very recent (sadly enough) and I’d like to hear about older cases and as many cases as I can.

PLEASE help and let me know if your horse(s) reacted and what their status was in the long-term. I am all too wary that the chemical burns in his mouth could have done something internally and I’d love to hear some stories of hope where horses were just fine for years after the reaction with no internal consequences. However hopeful I may be, I will NEVER use this product again. The side effects are REAL and so painful to watch your horse go through! Thank you COTH for being such a good resource! You are truly helping horses and horse owners!

[nu2u]

Welll what timing…my horse was wormed 3 weeks ago, had the mouth reaction acted fine for a week…then mildly colicky off n on biggest sign is he just seemed like it hurt to pass manure… currently going on day 4 in the large animal hospital with thickening and petechia(sp? pahteekeeye) of the duodenum. In plain english…the valve from stomach to intestine is really abnormal in a really unusual way and painful when even small amounts of food pass through…biopsy results can not come back fast enough!!!

[Leather]

The most helpful thing that can be done for these cases is to ensure that these problems are reported to FDA.

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/ReportaProblem/ucm055305.htm

[nu2u]

Thank you Leather! vets think any reaction to the ZG should have cleared up by now…but can’t give me a better explanation yet either…CMON BIOPSY RESULTS!!!

[Ghazzu]

I’m amazed this crap is still on the market.

[dbliron1]

In Canada this stuff is marketed as Eqvalan Gold. I used it for years without experiencing any issues, but two weeks ago one of our mares had a massive localized reaction in her lip, cheek and tongue. Within 10 minutes of administration she had edema and blistering, and was clearly very uncomfortable. On the advice of my vet I gave her dex, and within 2 hours the episode was clearly over, and by the next day even the blistering was gone. I’m telling all my friends and clients about this response, and won’t be using the product again.

[BroncoMo]

Unfortunately (or rather fortunate for me and my horses) I do not have experience with the reactions associated with Zimecterin Gold. I had not used it until this year, wormed about 25 head, then within hours my sister sent me the link to a forum that was circulating about the reactions. I did some research and from what I had found (over the summer) is it is the carrier that Ivermectin uses. It has been a problem for several years. I would have to do some looking again before I say just how many, but many years. For future use if one desires the use of Prezequantel, use Equimax. It is ivertemectin and prezequantel but uses a carrier that has not been associated with the high number of reactions that Zimecterin Gold has. Positive thoughts for yalls horses who have been affected.