I’m curious to know where you gleaned this bit of information. If you’re not in a deluxe, full-service barn where the horse is handed to you by a groom all groomed and tacked and ready to ride, you’re going to be dealing with manure and urine on a regular basis just by nature while grooming your horse as well as spotting owies of various levels. And we all know the spectacular ways in which horses manage to injure themselves.
Lady Eboshi"I know this is now considered heresy, but no one was deworming for tapes before praziquantal appeared on the market, and some of us still don’t see a reason to.
I had a horrendous reaction a number of years back to Quest Plus; whole herd scoured, several older horses colicked, and one Cushingoid mare went into kidney failure. Coincidence? I think not!"
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Whoa! Long, like many, many years before Praziquantal came out, I was deworming my horses at least annually with Strongid, double dose. I have since switched to products with praziquantal. I’ve even used Zimectrin Gold, without a reaction, but stopped tempting fate. I have never had a reaction. Not deworming for tapes is living dangerously.
I suspect that the reaction you saw was from an overload of tapes. Unless of course you live in one of the few areas where the intermediate host does not survive.
[QUOTE=merrygoround;8959269]
Lady Eboshi"I know this is now considered heresy, but no one was deworming for tapes before praziquantal appeared on the market, and some of us still don’t see a reason to.
I had a horrendous reaction a number of years back to Quest Plus; whole herd scoured, several older horses colicked, and one Cushingoid mare went into kidney failure. Coincidence? I think not!"
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Whoa! Long, like many, many years before Praziquantal came out, I was deworming my horses at least annually with Strongid, double dose. I have since switched to products with praziquantal. I’ve even used Zimectrin Gold, without a reaction, but stopped tempting fate. I have never had a reaction. Not deworming for tapes is living dangerously.
I suspect that the reaction you saw was from an overload of tapes. Unless of course you live in one of the few areas where the intermediate host does not survive.[/QUOTE]
Nope! Not a chance–nobody passed any tapes, dead or alive. It was a reaction to a drug I see no pressing reason to use again. My vet does not consider this “living dangerously.” We simply don’t seem to have the “problem.” Your mileage may differ in another part of the country, certainly.
The beautiful thing about the horse world is there is no ONE “right” answer–many answers can be “right” under different circumstances, and all opinions on COTH are worth exactly what we are paying for them. 
Which is why I always advise people to consult their VET, not a product box, feed-store dude or the owner in the next stall.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8958934]
I know this is now considered heresy, but no one was deworming for tapes before praziquantal appeared on the market, and some of us still don’t see a reason to.[/QUOTE]
Not heresy, simply wrong.
Double the standard dose of pyrantel was used for tapes before praziquantel.
I maintain that Praziquantal was a product in search of a “problem.” Before it was brought to market (and the research on tapes was designed to support its sales) no one even mentioned tapes. I’ve heard anecdotally that they are sometimes found when a colic case is opened up; their mere possible presence is way short of proof of causality in my book. And I’ve never seen or heard the vent mention even ONE single case of colic directly attributed to tapes.
There is a reasonable body of peer-reviewed literature on the subject.
Here are a few examples:
Proudman, C. J., French, N. P. and Trees, A. J. (1998), Tapeworm infection is a significant risk factor for spasmodic colic and ileal impaction colic in the horse. Equine Veterinary Journal, 30: 194–199.
C.J Proudman, A.J Trees, Tapeworms as a Cause of Intestinal Disease in Horses, Parasitology Today, Volume 15, Issue 4, 1 April 1999, Pages 156-159
Craig R. Reinemeyer, Martin Krarup Nielsen, Parasitism and Colic, Veterinary Clinics of North America: Equine Practice, Volume 25, Issue 2, August 2009, Pages 233-245
Now would you rather have a BIG problem, self-inflicted, or a “problem” that mostly only exists “in theory?”
Why do “stuff” you don’t need to do to begin with?
Your general attitude that things you have not personally had problems with are a hoax is downright amusing at times.
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[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8959383]
Nope! Not a chance–nobody passed any tapes, dead or alive. [/QUOTE]
A.perfoliata is not typically grossly observed in the feces, as the proglottids are small and inconspicuous, and typically break up during passage through the hind gut any road.
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[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8958934]
I know this is now considered heresy, but no one was deworming for tapes before praziquantal appeared on the market, and some of us still don’t see a reason to.[/QUOTE]
Yes, they/we were - double dosing pyrantel pamoate (Strongid paste). Then came Tapecare Plus - double dose in a single tube.
Those who don’t see a reason to kill tapeworms have not looked into the cases of fat happy shiny horses ending up on the operating table with a gut full of tapeworms.
I had a horrendous reaction a number of years back to Quest Plus; whole herd scoured, several older horses colicked, and one Cushingoid mare went into kidney failure. Coincidence? I think not!
Far more likely to be a contaminated batch, than to be a problem with the drugs by default. Many, many more farms have used Q and QP on more horses than yours, without a single issue. I hope you reported that, through your vet, to Zoetis
Have never used any of those combination products again, except when an owner demands it and then I have the vet give it so if something happens it is not “on me.” I do not routinely deworm even my own horses for tapes, and only on the vet’s direction for a hard keeper do I use a double dose of Panacur.
I don’t remember where you live but perhaps you are in a low tapeworm threat area. A double dose of Panacur is useless, unless as part of a 5 day double dose program.
I maintain that Praziquantal was a product in search of a “problem.”
Before it was brought to market (and the research on tapes was designed to support its sales) no one even mentioned tapes. their mere possible presence is way short of proof of causality in my book. And I’ve never seen or heard the vent mention even ONE single case of colic directly attributed to tapes.
Except that’s not true, per my comment above re: double dosing pyrantel pamoate. My vet was recommending a yearly dd of pp 15+ years ago, and she was not an anomaly.
I’ve heard anecdotally that they are sometimes found when a colic case is opened up;
Anecdotally? Case studies are hardly anecdotes
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9622319
103 spasmodic and 20 ileal impaction colics, 22% determined to be from tapeworms. 81% of ileal impactions were from tapeworms.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8508752
“The risk of ileocaecal colic was increased in the presence of tapeworms”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11202380?dopt=Abstract
Increase of colics on a single farm with no tapeworm prevention, and colics decreased once tapeworm treatments were implemented
Now would you rather have a BIG problem, self-inflicted, or a “problem” that mostly only exists “in theory?”
I’d MUCH rather spend a little extra money twice a year, than end up with a surgery candidate
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[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8959179]
One thing frequently left out of the whole deworming question is not only regional differences around the country, but what kind of land you have and how you manage it. My vet tells me that tapes are (in New England at least) of concern primarily in low-lying, wetter pastures as opposed to high and dry uplands. Manure management of course is also a factor.[/QUOTE]
It’s never left out of any discussion I have, because it matters. It is true that many people don’t talk about it because they don’t know, but many DO know and DO talk about it
One thing almost EVERYONE forgets (especially those mostly interested in pushing products) in the parasite equation is that the horse himself develops a robust immune reaction to most species of “worms” by maturity. What is very necessary to protect the immature digestive system of the foal to two year old is quite different in the mature, healthy horse. Debility, age, or heavy infestations of course bring their own problems and much be managed as such. You primarily encounter such only among the “rescue” population. This is why, IMO, it is very, VERY important to bring your vet in on the decision.
Except that horses don’t develop immunity to bots and tapeworms. That is exactly why the AAEP itself recommends that most of the country deworm specifically for those 1-2 times a year, depending on where you live and what your particular management situation is
In ordinary, HEALTHY, mature horses with robust immune systems, however, it is now being proven by new research that we have, in essence, been doing MUCH TOO MUCH deworming, and have done great damage in so doing for the very parasite-resistance issues cited above.
Too much deworming has been talked about for over a decade now. It’s definitely not new, but it is true that many, including vets, still aren’t up on that. There’s really no excuse for that anymore though - it’s not remotely a new issue
Today according to my vet it is VANISHINGLY RARE for a well-kept healthy horse to have a “major load” or infestation of any kind of internal parasite. And what he does have may well be balanced naturally by his own immunities.
True, and in large part that’s due to some of the over-deworming done. But it’s still true they don’t develop immunity to bots and tapeworms
We are now deworming only twice per year.
80-90% of horses need only that.
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Lady E, this thread comes to mind when you go off on how ridiculous we are for listening to current research and recommendations:
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[QUOTE=Simkie;8959549]
Lady E, this thread comes to mind when you go off on how ridiculous we are for listening to current research and recommendations:
What also comes to mind is why people should consult with their OWN veterinarian who understands local and barn conditions when they plan their deworming managment; not “software engineers” on a chat board.
This thread is warning people of the dangers of certain commerical combination medicines including praziquantal. Some horses have had very dangerous reactions to these products; my horses were some such. I prefer now to avoid the product and we have had no negative impact because I do.
Obviously, my experience is not representative, universal, or telling others what to do. Only your VETERINARIAN should be consulted for that!
My experience is merely added to others similar on this thread.
The fact that a drug, product, or device exists in the marketplace does NOT mean it is MANDATORY that one use it.
I have used zimectrin gold and never an issue.Know other people who use it and never an issue either. I worm for tapes every fall i no longer use ZG because of the issues with it,but wasn’t because i personally had horses that had issues with it.
Lady E- Do keep in mind that tape worms frequently do not appear in fecal samples.
Interestingly enough too, my horses live on upland hills in very large pastures, that are rotated.
And my VETERINARIAN is all in for deworming for tapes.
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I haven’t experienced the issue first hand, thankfully, but I have known multiple barns that had multiple horses react to it. My horse may not react to is, but I’m not about to run the risk when I know people who have dealt with the after effects. I can learn from the experiences of others, and will stick with Equimax.
Why would anyone use ZG ? Equimax has a higher load of active ingredients and more of them. Dosage for up to 1320 # horse vs 1250 # for ZG.
Per Jeffers current price… Equimax costs $0.04 more per tube. FOUR CENTS !
We’re arguing over a price differential ? Does anyone get a kick-back from Merial ?
Edit to add… Merial offers a $1.50 rebate per tube of ZG till 13/31/16
I will buy Equimax
Actually no, I don’t think you have read this or any related thread. The issue is not praziquantel. It’s not the combination of ivermectin + prazi. If it were, then Equimax would have the same issue, and it doesn’t.
The issue is with some or all of the carrier ingredients Merial uses. The same thing happens with their Canadian equivalent Eqvalan Gold.
The fact that a drug, product, or device exists in the marketplace does NOT mean it is MANDATORY that one use it.
Exactly, and the fact that Equimax is just as effective as ZG, and the fact that it doesn’t have this issue (which doesn’t mean NO horse has ever reacted to it, there is a horse who has had a problem with every single drug out there, no matter the category or drug or combination), despite having more praziquantel in it, means there’s no valid reason to continue to use ZG. Just because it’s there, doesn’t mean it is mandatory that it’s used, even if your (generically) horses have never had a problem. There are simply far too many horses who have had problems.
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[QUOTE=merrygoround;8960058]
Lady E- Do keep in mind that tape worms frequently do not appear in fecal samples. [/QUOTE]
It’s actually rare that they do. Rare enough that the AAEP even says never rely on a FEC to determine if there are tapeworms.
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LE - when it comes down to a discussion about worming protocols, I put my faith in JB’s well researched and knowledgeable input.
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:lol: When exactly is 13-31-16?
I put my faith in my vet’s well researched and knowledgeable input.
I’ve used ZG in the past because the local stores didn’t carry Equimax or the shipment didn’t come in until several weeks after I dewormed (vet said to deworm in October for tapeworms but Equimax didn’t show up on local shelves until late December).
This was before I knew about the possible reactions. I will say I’ve never personally had issues with ZG.
I have always used Equimax due to concerns about Zimactrin Gold. However last Spring could not find it commercially available locally. So used Z-gold without noticeable side effects but stll uncomfortable using it.
So far this fall have not seen Zimectrin in the tack shops. Hope it becomes locally available again soon.
Although this thread is nearly 2 years old, this is first time in 49+ years of having horses I’ve ever even heard about this, until tonight! I came out to the barn this afternoon to find one of my horses, my TB mare with a huge lower lip, the entire inside of her cheek and lip a big swollen red ball, horses had been pasture grazing all day and my first thought was a bee or wasp must have gotten in her mouth and stung her, but the fact that this was the same side I’d administered the zemectrin Gold to both her and my WB gelding earlier this morning, he shows no sign of swelling or redness.have never seen anything like this, a saving grace I’m presuming is that this mare has been on an aggressive dose therapy of Bute for the last 3 days for a Stifle injury, thus assuming has helped in keeping swelling down somewhat enough as she is able to eat.can only imagine how much worse this would have been had she not been already on the Bute, will reassess first thing in the morning as well as watching for necrosis in the next few days. This is horrific, have used this product with this mare and all our horse for the last 8 years with no event, have never heard of anyone else having any experience like this ever, not here at home nor at the training barns, so was quite shocked when I did an internet search on this and saw how many horses have been horribly burned from a ZEMECTRIN GOLD. To say I will never use this again is an understatment, I will make sure everyone I know with horses is aware of how dangerous this productd is. The very vague warning in the packaging does little to bring any caution to horse owners of the danger in this product, Merials lack of product warning disclaimer is utterly negligent. Should my mare suffer ongoing acute reprocussions from this, I will pursue this …
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