Wow… I figured there were probably some SO’s out there who were having issues with the points but I didn’t realize there were this many and that the scope of the problem is much bigger than just sire points. And with the only 500+ views this thread has gotten so far, I’m afraid to know how many have actually been affected who don’t realize it yet. Please help to spread the word because many voices together can be heard and influence change.
Thank you to the YHS and the USSHBA for getting involved. It’s encouraging not only to see individuals coming together but organizations as well. Keep talking. We need change obviously in more than one area. Wouldn’t it be something if it started it with you folks right here?! Keep pushing forward. That’s all we need to do. Let anyone around you know how important it is for the USEF to have ONE united system that WORKS!
I had a problem with the 2012 Eventing Sires List.
On the list A Fine Romance is recorded as 79th.
I checked the offspring, and one of his best eventing offspring in 2912, Landmark’s Legendary Romance - did not have her points added to his total.
I emailed Ken Ball to point out the problem and request that it be corrected. His response was that they couldn’t do anything if the offspring was not in their database.
I understand this - except that Legendary Romance WAS in their database, with the correct breeding listed. In fact, in 2012 her breeder was USEF Eventing Breeder of the Year.
I explained pointed this out to Mr Ball, linking her results in my email - and was told that he could not correct it. That it had to be done by their IT people.
:
I have not looked lately, but the last time I looked it had not been corrected.
If it was corrected, the way it SHOULD HAVE BEEN, A Fine Romance would be 12th on the list of Eventing Sires.
I’m not happy, as you can imagine.
Can anyone suggest what my next step should be to try to get this fixed?
Is this burden only on US-North American sire owners? I can’t imagine the owners of foreign sires emailing the USEF and it seems offspring of Darco, Cruising, Baloubet du Rouet, etc are all counted as those sires appear on USEF leading sires lists.
I would venture a guess that it is true for all stallions listed on the rankings. That said, I really had no idea before it happened to me how truly non informative the sire rankings are. I’m sure there are thousands of sires that are missing points from their offspring. It’s a travesty…
Back in the mid- or late-90’s, I was invited to a meeting at what was then AHSA to discuss many things including the database they were hoping to get going. Those present were given a spiral binder probably 3+" thick (which I still have somewhere) that contained hundreds of pages of data on horses then currently in the system. We were invited/asked to update and correct data and given a “back door” code into the computer system to do so.
I spent SO MUCH TIME doing that and printed out and shipped a box of back-up pedigree data. Nothing ever changed tho.
It was amazing how many stallion names were incorrectly spelled! While he was not one of them … and I hope Maryanna doesn’t mind I use him as an example … just imagine how many misspellings Don Principe (for instance) might have. In most cases, trainers are entering this data (if they bother). So how many spellings could we come up with? Dawn Principle? Don Principie? Dawn Prince? You get the drift. If not a correct spelling match, the offspring do not code to the sire.
I wish all of you still with the “fight” the best of luck getting something accomplished with USEF. There really is no excuse that we’re not much better at this after all these years. (Well … there may be an excuse but we’ll just not go there.)
[QUOTE=poltroon;7326092]
I suspect it comes down to this:
The USEF horse registry, unlike a breed registry, has no restrictions on duplicate names. So for example, there are probably thousands of horses in the USEF database named “Celebration.”
So, when I register “Party Time” as a daughter of “Celebration,” they can’t just assign her to Celebration’s offspring because they don’t know which “Celebration” to choose.
What needs to happen is that when you register your horse, we need to have the sire and dam represented by a name AND a unique number, so the records can be cleanly linked. (That seems easier and more possible than insisting that everyone who ever names a horse come up with a totally unique name… :lol: )
The strategy of the stallion owner handing a pre-filled form to the mare owner seems very wise.[/QUOTE]
Coming down to database technicus and that is the main issue you have, a unique Name is not needed and can actually not be archived anymore as there are already a lot of same name (breed registries do not require a unique name - at least bit all and not for all horses …).
The only thing needed is a database key which would be a life number !!! (I am an IT person…)
In Germany they (the FN) solve the naming issue by adding a number to the name like Emily 15.
It is true of all stallions. The USEF stallion rankings are utterly pointless and useless for any kind of research. Ask me how I know? Go to the horse results page. Type in the stallion you would like to research under sire. Do not type in any other information. All the registered offspring will appear. Then go and search one by one to determine if the offspring is of the stallion you are researching. Now go and look for said stallion on the stallion rankings. Compare the number of offspring that contribute to points with the number of offspring competing. You will see such a ridiculous gap it makes the USEF look foolish and the stallion rankings pretty unreliable. I only research stallions by searching that stallion under horse results and then going through one by one and pulling up results. The fact microchipping was not passed reveals the utter ignorance and ineptitude of an organization that needs a complete renovation.
[QUOTE=LavenderFarm;7326650]
It was amazing how many stallion names were incorrectly spelled! [/QUOTE]
Yes, this makes me crazy! I too have seen multiple butcherings of many stallions’ names.
Just as frustrating are all the dams listed with “Hauptstutbuch” as the first part of their name.
And why are damsires not listed?
Furthermore, why do they even allow people to list a sire or dam without sending in PROOF in the form of registration papers?
As far as a bloodline/performance tracking database goes, it is a joke.
Not even the editorial staff of the Chronicle understands this.
But at least you have to give them credit for taking the passport out and looking at it rather than filling in “unknown” ! 
The USEF should be ashamed to present such list on their website, it makes them looks like careless amateur. They should remove this ranking as long as they won’t be able to present something accurate.
Taking the care of tracking your own stallion offspring result is certainly good and I applaud to that but won’t have any credibility on this list unless ALL owners do the same.
If the USEF really insist of presenting this ranking , I would suggest to rename the ‘USEF Points for Leading Sires’ to ’ USEF best tracking Stallion Owner’ At least it would have the quality of being closer to reality
One of my stallions, Sugarbrook Blue Pacific missed out on thousands of points last year and this year. The reason you might ask…Pony by “Traveller” , owned by his breeder (ponies breeder) , registered him lifetime registration. Pony sold, new owner re-registered him with a new name and thus a new registration number listing sire and dam as unknown.
After many phone calls to USEF and to the new and old owners of this pony to link points to Traveller I am told the same thing time after time. The new owners need to change the information. WELL, they will not bother to do it. What do I do?? So far, nothing has worked.
Its hard keeping up with all the offspring of my boys, but when I see a problem, it seems like a simple solution to correct it. All the trainers involved know he is by Traveller and know his original name. No secrets here. Anyone have a suggestion??
… not to make everybody here even angrier, BUT it’s absolutely the same with any of the other rankings published by the USEF that involve horses. What is my incentive to respond to their e-mails about renewing my membership??
USEF database is a total joke. A life number for each horse would solve the problem, but…
as long as the USEF is controlled by trainers there will NEVER be a life number or microchips required. After all, how would they rename, reregister and then resell upper level horses as eligible first year green if it was so easy to check? Or rename, reregister and resell that 18 year old as a 12 year old? Etc, etc, etc, etc…
[QUOTE=alexandra;7327048]
Coming down to database technicus and that is the main issue you have, a unique Name is not needed and can actually not be archived anymore as there are already a lot of same name (breed registries do not require a unique name - at least bit all and not for all horses …).
The only thing needed is a database key which would be a life number !!! (I am an IT person…)
In Germany they (the FN) solve the naming issue by adding a number to the name like Emily 15.[/QUOTE]
Of course. The problem is that you not only have to have those numbers, but you have to ask for them from the foal owners AND the foal owners have to know them, and then write them down on the form. I don’t have USEF numbers for my mare’s parents. (I don’t think it was even on the forms when I registered her.) It’s not something routinely communicated with the horse’s identity in the US, currently.
It’s doable, but it requires a (significant) change in practice.
[QUOTE=bloomingtonfarm;7327137]
The USEF should be ashamed to present such list on their website, it makes them looks like careless amateur. They should remove this ranking as long as they won’t be able to present something accurate.
Taking the care of tracking your own stallion offspring result is certainly good and I applaud to that but won’t have any credibility on this list unless ALL owners do the same.
If the USEF really insist of presenting this ranking , I would suggest to rename the ‘USEF Points for Leading Sires’ to ’ USEF best tracking Stallion Owner’ At least it would have the quality of being closer to reality ;)[/QUOTE]
I am not a breeder, but I tend to agree - the list becomes extremely misleading and I’ve always noticed that stallions tend to get on the list with just one or two extremely high profile offspring. I initially found this distressing, thinking it meant that breeding was even more of a crapshoot than it is, that we didn’t have US stallions stamping multiple proficient offspring. When you realize that most stallions are only connected to a handful of their offspring, it makes more sense.
[QUOTE=YHS Info;7325796]
[I]UELN Number proposal:
After researching and discussing the issue directly with UELN, I believe that USEF could start a new database based on UELN numbers.
How would it work?
- All existing organizations (Registries, studbook, etc…) that register horses at birth are eligible to get their own UELN code and therefore issue a UELN number.
- A UELN code is made of 6 numbers and is assigned to each applying organizations.
- Each organization needs to adapt their existing registration numbering by providing a 9 diigit number of their choice to each horse. That number can also include letters. That number would link the horses to the organization database where all of the info on the horses is stored.
- The combination of the 6 digit code provided by UELN and the 9 digit registration number provided by the organization will become the 15 digit UELN number.
- That 15 digit number would also need to be linked with microchip and would not change for the rest of the horse’s life.
- That number would be provided to USEF “as is” and would become their USEF number as well.
With this system in place (which is the system already in place in most of Europe), USEF and therefore the US would be in line with the rest of the world when it comes to horse ID and make all data, sales and show records gathered on each horse relevant to Americans and the rest of the world as well.
JY TOLA
[/I][/QUOTE]
The BWP studbook is already obtaining USEF life recording numbers for foals at the time of registration. The information provided to USEF includes the UELN for the foal, plus the USEF numbers of the sire, dam and breeder, when known. The USEF database is already searchable by microchip number, UELN, etc. (https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Searches/horseRecording.aspx)
When you record a foal, you should supply the USEF numbers for sire and dam if you wish to tie the sires to their produce. The USEF number is what ties the leading sire lists together.
[QUOTE=r3dd0g;7327637]
The BWP studbook is already obtaining USEF life recording numbers for foals at the time of registration. The information provided to USEF includes the UELN for the foal, plus the USEF numbers of the sire, dam and breeder, when known. The USEF database is already searchable by microchip number, UELN, etc. (https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Searches/horseRecording.aspx)
When you record a foal, you should supply the USEF numbers for sire and dam if you wish to tie the sires to their produce. The USEF number is what ties the leading sire lists together.[/QUOTE]
At the risk of sounding like Debbie Downer (Wah, Waaaah), that apparently doesn’t work either. The AHS applies for life numbers for all foals with the above information, and my filly’s sire still didn’t get the points for her shows this year.
Ok, “Salute the Troops” made me laugh… you GOTTA use that name in the future, Erin.
I spelled my horse’s sire correctly when USEF registering him (Fabuleux). USEF went ahead and entered the sire’s name in with a typo and then gave me a hard time (wanted me to submit new paperwork) to fix it. Um… I did it right the first time. What’s wrong w this picture?!
[QUOTE=r3dd0g;7327637]
The BWP studbook is already obtaining USEF life recording numbers for foals at the time of registration. The information provided to USEF includes the UELN for the foal, plus the USEF numbers of the sire, dam and breeder, when known. The USEF database is already searchable by microchip number, UELN, etc. (https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Searches/horseRecording.aspx)
When you record a foal, you should supply the USEF numbers for sire and dam if you wish to tie the sires to their produce. The USEF number is what ties the leading sire lists together.[/QUOTE]
Nope. Doesn’t work. North American Studbook does this as well and USEF missed points for us too. It’s a super flawed system that needs a major overhauling. I’d be embarrassed to be a major organization that compiles rankings much of which contains not even remotely accurate information. They’re an organization of very smart people who really ought to be able to figure out how to have one number for every horse since several other organizations have managed it just fine for years and years. Like someone said above, it can’t be run/heavily influenced by trainers…and it is.
By the way… What is one to do to link their horse to a stallion such as let’s say Balou du Rouet when he obviously doesn’t have a USEF #? How would one manage to “supply the sire’s USEF #” … you see the problem here?
