Was it the hay?

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

If you’ve read the book I wrote about Dexter, sorry for the re-cap but for those who haven’t… 5 y/o TWH status post right forelimb street nail procedure, subsequent enteritis twice, status post supporting limb laminitis, confirmed gastric ulcers and suspected duodenal/ hindgut ulcers all since June.

Dexter had cow patty, foul smelling poo. His turn out has been limited to short periods of hand grazing due to laminitis recovery (did not have sinking or rotation). Two days ago his poop became normal. Normal consistency, normal smell. I figured the supplements had started to kick in as they were begun about two weeks ago. He’s on a gastrogard taper, also getting purina outlast, U7 and equiotic probiotics. Has a hay net with a Timothy/ Alfalfa mix 24/7 with flakes tossed in during the day.

One bale was mostly first cut stemmy awful looking alfalfa. The other bales are more Timothy. I fed the stemmy bale more as a snack bale, and got brave enough to increase it and started just tossing a couple flakes worth a day. I noticed he was suddenly always hungry. AND he was ruining the Timothy hunting for alfalfa. Ran out of the stemmy stuff. 48 hours later we are back to cow poo. No rotten smell yet.

He did decrease his water intake for a day in there somewhere and I bumped his feed ration slightly and think that I may have inadvertently dosed him twice with equiotic the day before he normalized.

I suppose it could have been a fluke that it normalized. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to whether it was the alfalfa or the amount of stem that helped or is the Timothy causing the problem? He ate less hay through the day when he was getting larger amounts of the stemmy stuff because he was selectively hunting the alfalfa and I thought that might be a bad thing.

I am also debating giving him some biosponge. His surgeon recommended it when the cow patties started but Dexter had enteritis before it arrived and then other supplements were started.

Three vets are unconcerned about his cow poo. Thanks in advance for any opinions.

[Scribbler]

Could be. Alfalfa has a very different nutrition profile to grass. It also has calcium and is typically fed to bsoothe ulcers.

Do you have your hay tested? What’s the sugar level and the indigestible fibre level? Both of these can affect digestion.

The way to find out if alfalfa will work is to buy a few bales and try feeding them.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

That’s what I was thinking. Just trying to decide if I should get the stemmy stuff or travel for some better stuff or get cubes or a compressed bale.

I have my regular hay tested because cause I get it from the same guy all the time. In my location its all fescue, orchard, clover and Timothy. Warm season grasses and alfalfa have to be brought in and it’s tough to find it from the same place all the time. About the time you get results, they ship in stuff from a different area so it’s almost pointless. My other horses are 24/7 turn out with round bales and pasture except for Dex. I had luck with crabgrass this year actually taking. Now I have crop circles where they grazed the crab til they killed it and left stands of other grasses. Ugh :no:

Hadn’t thought about calcium. He’s been on long term gastrogard and may be compensating for lack of calcium absorption. Thank you for that idea.

I have been considering the TC chopped complete forage stuff that has the vitamin and mineral additives but also has probiotics. As he’d need 20 lbs a day to completely replace everything it may be okay as a snack a few times a day. I may just do some cubes or a compressed bale for a few days to see if it’s the alfalfa or the roughage in the other bale.

[Scribbler]

Well I’d go looking for a bale or two of decent alfalfa and see if that helps. Around here alfalfa is in 120 lb bales if your bales are smaller you might want a few more. Give it a try. Can’t hurt.

I wouldn’t go super stemmy on purpose.

[IPEsq]

I’d also look for a better alfalfa and try just feeding that. I wouldn’t buy stemmy if he’s just wasting the stems. Get something better quality that he’ll want to eat in addition to the leaves.

I don’t think I’d do bio sponge until he’s off gastrogard. It’s generally ok to double dose the probiotics for a while if you find that is helping.

[csaper58]

@Second Star To The Right

That’s what I was thinking. Just trying to decide if I should get the stemmy stuff or travel for some better stuff or get cubes or a compressed bale.

I have my regular hay tested because cause I get it from the same guy all the time. In my location its all fescue, orchard, clover and Timothy. Warm season grasses and alfalfa have to be brought in and it’s tough to find it from the same place all the time. About the time you get results, they ship in stuff from a different area so it’s almost pointless. My other horses are 24/7 turn out with round bales and pasture except for Dex. I had luck with crabgrass this year actually taking. Now I have crop circles where they grazed the crab til they killed it and left stands of other grasses. Ugh :no:

Hadn’t thought about calcium. He’s been on long term gastrogard and may be compensating for lack of calcium absorption. Thank you for that idea.

I have been considering the TC chopped complete forage stuff that has the vitamin and mineral additives but also has probiotics. As he’d need 20 lbs a day to completely replace everything it may be okay as a snack a few times a day. I may just do some cubes or a compressed bale for a few days to see if it’s the alfalfa or the roughage in the other bale.

I would try the BoiSponge.

I would be wondering if the probiotic you are feeding might be contaminated with mold, yeast, E.coli, or Salmonella, [all things ConsumerLab.com has found in human probiotics they buy off the shelf to test]

Be sure to establish with vets if sugar content of hay is an issue before spending a lot of $$$ on new hay.

To me loose foul smelling poo means gut irritation, and or fermentation. Both common with hind gut ulcers, also with a food sensitivity. There are some diet recos, under treatment, in the vet school publication below. [Louisiana State University School of Veterinary Medicine]

http://www.lsu.edu/vetmed/ehsp/horse…nic_ulcers.php

http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/horse/ho…gestive-health Is the product our local vet school recos for a probiotic. Buy it from a reputable vet supply source that will ship it ‘cool’ so good things in it do not die.

There is a supplement called Succeed that many feel helps hind gut ulcers heal, there are many threads on it. The easiest way to find them is to Google ‘chronofhorse succeed supplement’ or something similar. Some folks feel adding Oat Bran to the diet work just as well. Here is one thread with some recipes for a ‘home made succeed equivalent’ Or you could start a new thread on ‘Hindgut Buffering Supplements’. There may be some new knowledge out there.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/fo…king-it-myself

Your horse’s gut responded very quickly and positively to something, so at least you know recovery is possible. I wonder if when grazing he could have picked up some beneficial microbs, enough to replenish his gut for a little while?

Make all diet changes gradually and with the vet’s approval.

Jingling for your boy!

[IPEsq]

@csaper58

There is a supplement called Succeed that many feel helps hind gut ulcers heal, there are many threads on it. The easiest way to find them is to Google ‘chronofhorse succeed supplement’ or something similar. Some folks feel adding Oat Bran to the diet work just as well. Here is one thread with some recipes for a ‘home made succeed equivalent’ Or you could start a new thread on ‘Hindgut Buffering Supplements’. There may be some new knowledge out there.

Do not feed oat bran. Some feed oat flour, but what you’re really looking for is the l-glutamine.

[csaper58]

@IPEsq

Do not feed oat bran. Some feed oat flour, but what you’re really looking for is the l-glutamine.

@Second Star To The Right

www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/horse-care/9780504-oat-flour

Above is a good discussion of the benefits of oat flour vs oat bran. They each bring something to the party. What you feed depends on what you need.

[Scribbler]

If you are treating for a gastric ulcer that can disturb the hind gut.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

Thanks so much everyone!!! There is so much I’d like to respond to directly but I’m fumble fingered tonight and messed up the whole multi quote thing.

Yes, I think the gastrogard is contributing to the hindgut issues. His surgeon wanted me to continue full dose until he is off of anti inflammatories. He’s been on gastrogard since the 21st of June. I told my regular vet I was tapering off and he concurred. His serum calcium levels are getting lower with each lab draw. That is gastrogard and I’m done with it a while.

Im sorry I wasn’t clear about the stemmy alfalfa. He LOVED it. He inhaled it especially the stemmy parts. It may be a quality of roughage thing. I have heard people say from time to time that they have horses that do better on what we would consider too stemmy. With the grass hays he is getting right now being so soft perhaps he needs a little bark in his gut.

I had had read the colitis article when we suspected he may have RDC from the high dose anti inflammatories. It’s a great article and thank you for sharing the link. RDC was ruled out at the hospital after his second bout of enteritis. He is currently on equiotic which contains the same yeast as the proviable (a great brobiotic). The surgeon recommended Equiotic because it also contains a horse sourced lactobacillus that has been shown to kil salmonella and other bugs that might over populate due to his long term antibiotic therapy. The mention of shipping cold set a lightbulb off for me. It never dawned on me to refrigerate the darned yeast!!
That may be why he improved after the double dose. I’ve killed half the good stuff. I’ll order more and might double him up until it gets here.

I see SUCCEED everywhere I look. Right now I am spending about a grand a month on vets, labs and X-rays, don’t even want to think about what I’ve spent on sigafoos and farrier bills and gastrogard the past month and adding a supplement that expensive is just not happening right now. The vet wanted me to try the outlast because of the beta glucans, and the type of calcium used. The beta glucans MIGHT help improve things more quickly with his liver as we basically had a drug induced hepatitis. The calcium is seaweed derived and because of the particular molecular structure SHOULD have better bioavailability. My surgeon basically said all hindgut supplements are created equal and may or may not work, feed alfalfa 2 lbs every 5-6 hours.

Sitting here typing all this has me thinking he is on too many supplements. hmmmmmmm. Maybe we have gotten him too alkaline. I’m going to feed good alfalfa, taper off gastrogard, replace his probiotic and see where we are. If no improvement I will taper down the U7 or the outlast. For grins and giggle I’m going to double dose the probiotics and if that works I’ll order the paste as it has double the content of the daily packs. Maybe when I’m not buying gastrogard I can consider moving to SUCCEED.

Gosh guys thanks!! I haven’t slept in two months. I literally check on the horse through the night in hour and a half increments and it’s getting hard to organize my thoughts. Reading your responses and answering them helped me to categorize lots of things in my head. Thanks so much for all your help. :yes:

[AKB]

If you have trouble getting good alfalfa, look at Standlee compressed alfalfa. You can wet it down and serve it in a tub if you are trying to get more water into your horse. When I travel, I pour a bucket of water on top of a couple of flakes in the hay bag. Even if my horse won’t drink on the trailer, he arrives well hydrated from the very wet hay.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

I actually bought him a compressed bale this morning because I can’t get to the alfalfa before Tuesday. He won’t eat wet hay. Even a little damp. But he’s munching it up dry. I’m just careful to feed small amounts. Honestly, because all the leaf flakes away in these double pressed alfalfa bales he’s eating the stems which is honestly what I think tightened up his poop. He drinks well, usually 15 -20 gallons a day and as the one who mucks his stall, I can attest to the fact that his kidneys work. :lol:

We’ll see how it goes from here. I did double the probiotics today. I can’t order more until the DH gets back in town…why you say? Because some jerk got ahold of my debit card number and I was alerted by my banks fraud department about unusual spending…so, my debit card is flagged and I won’t have one for 10 days. Yay me. Anyway, I’m hoping it wasn’t just a fluke that it got better for a couple days.

But I also happened to think, he was off of grass for a few weeks because of stall rest with the laminitis and that’s when the cow pies started. He’s back on now so we’ll get it figured out eventually.