Was my trainer in the wrong here?

[funky_bunny]

A close friend at the barn recently pulled her horse without giving notice. It was a real dust up. She and the BO/trainer had always been on great terms, so it came out of no where. She wasn’t eager to disclose what went down out of respect for the BO, but finally told me that it had to do with her horse’s recurrent lameness.

Apparently the BO had been downplaying the vet’s assessment and not passing along recommendations for imaging studies. When she pulled her horse, she had the vet do a full work up and found a chronic injury that needs special shoeing and lengthy rehab. She feels the trainer neglected the horse. On the other hand, I can’t see how the BO had any incentive to withhold the vet’s recommendation. I want to think maybe she believed she was protecting the owner from going down a diagnostic rabbit hole. The fact that there did happen to be a serious issue obviously looks bad for the trainer, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

So, on a separate note, I am regretfully moving out of state. I recently got a new horse and have been leasing my former pony to the trainer for her lesson program. I thought this was a good arrangement and intended to continue it after moving with my new horse. However, my friend thinks I am risking the pony’s welfare and should think carefully about trusting the trainer with his care. I wouldn’t worry if I were still at the barn every day, but my friend’s experience concerns me now that I will be OOS. I never saw red flags with the trainer, but I also never relied on her to talk to the vet or farrier for me. All of her lesson horses are fit and healthy, I want to think my friend’s experience is just an outlier.

Was the trainer being negligent? Or is it more likely she was trying to protect a client she thought would go overboard on diagnostics? More to the point, do I have reason to worry about leaving the pony in her care? I am considering finding a full care lease on-property, but realize there are some risks (and potentially bad blood/awkwardness) with that too.

[lenapesadie]

@funky_bunny

Was the trainer being negligent?

If the trainer did in fact withhold information from the vet about from your friend (and your friend was responsible for said vet bills) then YES I believe that’s negligent. No excuse. I would not leave a horse with that person myself either.

• some gray areas might include if horse was leased to trainer. I’m not sure how the obligation would work in such a situation

[sportyspicepony]

Wow that is crazy!!!

Why wasn’t the horse’s owner speaking to the vet directly? Seems kind of unusual… but yah definitely would raise a red flag for me, if you have strong faith that this trainer is generally knowledgeable and responsible and honest and this was just a one-time mistake that’s one thing, but based on the information you gave… seems sketchy.

There’s going to be risks with any leaser / trainer that you send your pony to, but if there is an option that you could send him to that’s closer to where you live, I would probably lean towards that option over this trainer.

[No1]

I certainly would not leave a horse with someone who was withholding vet info from me. If she thought it was overboard/unnecessary she could tell the owner why and say I told you so after the fact, if she was right. Ultimately, however, this should be the owner’s choice. It’s the owner’s money to spend or not spend.

The trainer showed bad judgment. I would have a hard time trusting her to make good choices for my animals without direct supervision.

[S1969]

@sportyspicepony

Why wasn’t the horse’s owner speaking to the vet directly?

This, exactly.

Why wasn’t the owner involved with the vet/discussion, diagnosis and treatment?

Did the owner pay the bill but not talk to the vet?

Did the owner talk to the vet that the trainer was working with, or is this a different vet? “When she pulled her horse, she had the vet do a full work up and found a chronic injury that needs special shoeing and lengthy rehab.” (Same vet?)

Had the owner previously had the vet do “a full workup?”

Personally, I think they both sound negligent to an extent. The BO may not have known that the horse had a chronic issue if a “full workup” was not done…and the owner apparently didn’t think she needed to talk to the vet directly but let the BO be in charge of this issue. Unless this is a high end, full care facility you can’t pass that responsibility on to someone else. (And I doubt that is the case, since I would think in that situation, a BO would have advised full imaging immediately because the horse would probably be quite valuable and/or the owner could afford it.)

Whether you leave your pony there is definitely a situation of your own relationship with the BO. I would call her and ask for her side of the story.

[endlessclimb]

@S1969

Whether you leave your pony there is definitely a situation of your own relationship with the BO. I would call her and ask for her side of the story.

Yep, this. Three sides to every story and all that.

[trubandloki]

@S1969

Whether you leave your pony there is definitely a situation of your own relationship with the BO. I would call her and ask for her side of the story.

I agree with this (and all of the rest of that post, actually).

Was the owner not getting reports from the vet? If the vet suggested further diagnostics it would have been in the written report, that I would assume the owner was reading.

[lenapesadie]

@S1969

Why wasn’t the owner involved with the vet/discussion, diagnosis and treatment?

Did the owner pay the bill but not talk to the vet?

I boarded at a barn where the BO was the trainer. The BO was a bit startled (though accepting) when I advised that I would be having my vet come to the barn to do my horse’s vaccines / dental / check up. As it turns out, the MO at that facility was all horses were seen by BO’s preferred vet, BO held horses for vet and relayed info and bill to horse owners. The horse owners were not involved in the vet care (or farrier care for that matter) whatsoever. This was not a fancy barn. Think lots of beginners, lots of kids, local unrated shows only. Definitely not “full service”.

I totally agree that there are for sure 3 or 4 sides to this story, but based on my experience I don’t find it unusual that a HO wouldn’t be involved in vet care. I wouldn’t suggest that route by any means. Just that I am not surprised that such a situation occurred.

Side note: I caused quite a stir at the boarding barn I mentioned by having my own vet and my own farrier. That I scheduled and held my own horse for. And by having vet administered vaccines. Particularly when I explained to those that asked that the vaccine manufacturers would not “guarantee” vax unless given by a licensed vet.

Side note 2: Certainly self administered vax are better than no vax, but after my dog contracted a disease that she was professionally vaxxed for per manufacture and vet recommended schedule and then having vax manufacturer comp dogs care I will be having vet administered vax for all things.

[clanter]

@lenapesadie

I don’t find it unusual that a HO wouldn’t be involved in vet care.

well, lets jump into contract law…the person authorizing the care is the responsible party for payment

[trubandloki]

@lenapesadie

The horse owners were not involved in the vet care (or farrier care for that matter) whatsoever.

I think if you (general) go for this system then you can not scream when something the BO decided at that time does not agree with what you later decided to do.

In other words, if the friend in the OP is totally ‘not involved’ on the vet care for their horse they can not be mad when hind sight says that maybe some other route should have been taken and it was not.

[beowulf]

@sportyspicepony

Why wasn’t the horse’s owner speaking to the vet directly?

This is really not unusual in big barns. Industry standard in just about every high level / big clientele barn I have worked at or been in as well.

OP… Who do you trust more? Your friend, or your trainer…? That would weigh into my decision.

[lenapesadie]

That’s very true. In the barn I referenced, all bills were on BOs tab. Said BO would have been on the hook if she was unable to collect from her boarders. There was a situation where a horse owner was unable to collect a copy of her horse’s Coggins from vet as the service was on BO’s account.

It isn’t a situation I was interested in being part of. Mainly because I prefer my own vet as a service provider.

[lenapesadie]

That’s a good point.

I can see the HO being upset if BO didn’t pass on info from the vet. In my head it seems like HO trusted BO to faithfully report whatever recommendations/suggestions/ideas the vet came up with and HO feels/thinks BO did not do that.

If such a situation did indeed occur, I wouldn’t leave my horse with the BO while I was living out of state.

[clanter]

@clanter

well, lets jump into contract law…the person authorizing the care is the responsible party for payment

need to add one thing here, we had a horse in training in Kentucky (900 miles away)… there all care including Vet/farrier was under the direction of the trainer…but our horse had her own credit card to pay for her expenses…(and she knew how to use that thing… “I NEED a new bridle, this new one is sooo lovely”)

[SolarFlare]

@funky_bunny

Was the trainer being negligent? Or is it more likely she was trying to protect a client she thought would go overboard on diagnostics?

It’s not the BO/trainer’s job to protect the client from spending money on diagnostics that a vet is recommending. It’s their job to explain the situation to the client, including what the vet is suggesting, and then can provide an opinion. The client should make decisions based on having ALL of the information, not filtered through someone else’s biases.

If you decide to leave your pony in her care, I would explain to the vet that you are to be involved in all decisions and that you want to be copied on any examination reports/notes so that you have the same info that BO has.

I guess I understand why many people leave it up to barn staff or BO to deal with the vet, but that’s not how I work either. I arrange my own appts, attend them and handle my horse for the vet, etc. Then again, I also do my own rehab or other treatments that my horse needs, so I really need to know what’s going on and how to properly deal with whatever the current problem is.

[S1969]

@trubandloki

I think if you (general) go for this system then you can not scream when something the BO decided at that time does not agree with what you later decided to do.

This - exactly. You can’t have it both ways.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@funky_bunny

Apparently the BO had been downplaying the vet’s assessment and not passing along recommendations for imaging studies.

If this is true, then yes, the BO was negligent. Full stop. No “yeah, buts” or excuses.

I am surprised at how many of you are surprised that the BO or trainer was the intermediary between the vet and the owner. Like @beowulf said, this is industry standard at many places.

[S1969]

@OfCourseItsAnAlter

I am surprised at how many of you are surprised that the BO or trainer was the intermediary between the vet and the owner. Like @beowulf said, this is industry standard at many places.

I’m not at all surprised. But, if the owner wanted/trusted the BO to make all the decisions independently, then it’s unusual that she now disagrees with that arrangement.

I do think that if the vet explicitly said the horse needed more diagnostics and the BO did not share that with the horse owner, that was wrong. But I think it’s also very likely that the vet could have said “well, it’s hard to know. I mean, you could do more diagnostics, or you could wait and see.” The vet might even agree that a “wait and see” attitude is appropriate, but sure, of course more diagnostics would tell more.

It’s impossible to know without more information. I honestly can’t imagine a situation where a vet would tell the BO that a horse needed more diagnostics and she didn’t pass that on to the owner. It’s not like she would have to pay for it.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@S1969

I’m not at all surprised. But, if the owner wanted/trusted the BO to make all the decisions independently, then it’s unusual that she now disagrees with that arrangement.

I don’t think it’s unusual at all. Owner trusted BO to be responsible and be an honest direct conduit of information. Owner subsequently discovers that BO was not those things so the arrangement that was acceptable is no longer.

As far as the rest of your last post goes, that’s pure speculation on your part. You have fabricated an entire explanation of the situation about which you know nothing more than what the OP shared in the first post. Maybe that’s the way it went down. Maybe it’s not. We don’t know.

[Alterration]

@funky_bunny

Apparently the BO had been downplaying the vet’s assessment and not passing along recommendations for imaging studies.

What possible reason would a BO have for this other than to protect the client?

I don’t think that it’s BO negligence. Was the BO wrong? Yes, in this case the BO was wrong. I’ve had veterinarians not recommend imaging studies, but when I insisted, we found things. Was the vet negligent? No, they were just wrong. Sometimes barn owners, veterinarians, farriers and trainers are all human (shock, horror, I know).

Since the barn owner is actually human (I’m assuming) she probably feels pretty crappy about being wrong. My guess is that she will likely be more careful in the future, not less careful, about diagnostics.

The next question is how much of a horseman is friend? Is she a beginner with limited experience or is she a horseman with 30+ years of experience? How does your friend lean in terms of equine care? Some owners make a mountain of a molehill and others ignore issues until they are terrible. Where does she fall?

Based on your story with just the facts given, you weren’t worried about the pony before, I’m not sure I’d be worried about the pony now.