Weak back but moves nicely?

[OceansAway]

Hi everyone, I am hoping to get some advice from a broader range of people. I am looking for an upper level prospect on a tight budget, which has left me looking at off-breeds or babies. I am uncertain if I want to do the baby thing again, as twice I had babies get injured in turnout before I was even able to start them under saddle, amongst other hesitations.

Anyway, I was sent a prospect that my trainer doesn’t like because the mare has a weaker back and hindquarters (which isn’t uncommon with this particular breed) but I feel moves differently than how she looks. At some point my budget is going to dictate that I have to make compromises somewhere, and I don’t know if this should be a deal-breaker or not? The horse is not in dressage work, or even regular work, so I am sure that is also part of it, but who knows?

Has anybody been able to do upper level work with the more lean type with an angular build? Am I not thinking clearly about this? My other prospects are a 4 year old pretty average mover but with excellent trainability and a great mind, and the other is a more talented moving 2 year old, but with that, an obviously undetermined temperment and work ethic once started.

Any advice at all? Thanks so much, in advance!

[blue_heron]

Without more information, I’d be going with the 4 year old average mover with a great brain.

How old is this mare? And just how long/weak is her back? Of course there are horses that defy physics under saddle and can somewhat overcome their conformation, but your post sounds like you have been through the ropes and should be looking for something more “secure” prospect-wise. The difference in difficulty and the overall aesthetic in a long back vs. short back horse working over the back can be truly astounding. Depending on how long you’ve been looking, I would probably say the horse not conformationally suited to my goals should be moved to the discard pile of prospects before I get emotionally attached. As you mentioned, there are so many other things that can go wrong, why add another possibility?

[OceansAway]

Thanks for your reply! She is just 4, and her back is not particularly long. Just more curved and weaker right behind where the saddle sits. Huge wither, which kind of adds to the perception. Not particularly muscled in the hindquarters, but as mentioned, also typical of this particular breed for some lines.

My worry with the 4 year old average mover is I don’t want this process to be made unpleasant or a huge uphill battle because I am working against his natural talents. I do want this to be fun, and if he struggles I would feel terrible. If I wanted a lower level partner, this would be a no-brainer, but I already ride through 3rd and can school higher depending on the horse, so I am afraid to take the plunge and find out the horse can’t manage the higher collected work. Like I said, I’m not expecting to beat anyone out, but I don’t want it to be too hard to keep this guy sound or happy in his work, over a more athletic mover. You have been right that I have been through the mill over the past 13 years or so, and I just want to start making progress again, and actually having fun.

[Rerider54]

I am presently riding a horse that moves well and has what I think could be called a ‘weak back’. I have had him over a year. Started out with uneven muscle and what can only be described as a ‘hole’ behind his right wither. We thought we had this behind us and had a very good year showing last year. In January he dropped just enough weight that by the time we noticed it saddle fit became and issue, blanket pressure added to it and we are now just getting back to where we were the first of the year. It can be very discouraging.

So. My trainer really likes this horse and he is very sensible which makes it almost worthwhile. If your trainer is against it you might be paddling upstream. Is there any way to get the mare for a month(or longer) trial to see if getting her in shape helps her back? It might be worth it to the current owner to get the mare is shape and add to her training ( make her more sellable).

There is no telling what will be the outcome for either horse or that the next one you see won’t be better then either of these two. I know that this thought does not help. But there is always another horse. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[OceansAway]

Thank you for your feedback! This mare is very very far from me, otherwise a trial might be a possibility. Furthermore, the seller doesn’t ride dressage and isn’t in a dressage-heavy area, so my training wouldn’t make her more marketable for her necessarily, when or if she takes her back. I think my trainer is just looking out for me, because she knows my goals and doesn’t want me to end up with a horse with more issues, if it can be avoided.

[sascha]

Lots of caveats to come, but if the mare has exceptionally good movement and a nice temperament, I would totally go for it if:

• I were in control of how much and what she was asked in the first 2 (yes, two!) years.
• She showed a natural inclination to step under herself despite her perceived weakness
• I had sufficient self and physical control to take the time to put in a LOT of long, low, round work for as long as it took to put correct muscling on her (see above 2 years)
• I had sufficient knowledge of in-hand work to use it to help her build her abs sling
• I didn’t care whether or not I showed for a couple of years
• I had a good massage therapist who had an excellent working knowledge of dressage and how each dressage exercise uses different muscle groups
• I was smart enough to listen to my horse’s massage therapist above all else and use the exercises she/he suggested between monthly sessions.

I’ve done a few horses like this. Each time I tell myself I can make the process a little quicker. HAHAHA! I think I tell myself that so I don’t feel like I’m looking down an endless tunnel. LOL! That said, for ME (and possibly not for anyone else in the world), these horses are absolutely worth it and I love making this sort of transformation in a horse. There is nothing cooler than taking an angular, under-muscled stringy excuse for an equine and turning them into a body-building ballerina.

And all of that said, I’d take another look at the 4 year old average mover if that all seemed too daunting. Average movers don’t have to stay average movers with goods basics on them!

[sigrid.sijtsma]

if you have photos from the side where she is standing straight, we can see the natural angulation on a horse, so we can see what the ability in moving is, and where the weak points are in conformation, could be a weaker back… as weak as in hollow? and weaker hindquaters? weak as in not strong enough, no muscles, or weak cause it is to sloping croupe, so they cant collect enough from the hindend, cause they have to bend this to collect and when it is very sloping they cant, and get problems/ injurys.

I had a gelding, 15 yrs old, FEI jumper, jumped 150 course, tabel B, and he had a slight hollow back, but he was strong in the hind, and very well build and he had great mind and courage, and he worked on almost highest level in jumping.

So if i see photo of the horse from the side, standing natural, with fronte legs next to eachtother, just like thye do on show were they score horse on conformation and moving, i can tell you how it looks and how it moves, cause the natural born conformation/angulation tells me what the ability of a horse is.

[blue_heron]

With the new information that this mare is super far from you, your trainer isn’t a fan, and you are already concerned about the average mover in terms of his suitability and soundness, I would pass on this mare.

What’s your budget and general location? What’s the mare’s breed?

[equinelibrium]

As far as the horse’s back, I don’t really have any advice but someone here, (I think maybe @Jealoushe?) had a young horse with pretty severe lordosis that turned into a normal looking back through correct dressage work. Not quite the same scenario but still amazing to see regardless!

Found the post! Nice moving ugly horse?

That being said, I’d definitely take a closer look at the average moving 4 year old with a great mind. An average mover will almost definitely improve with lots of correct dressage work as long as the basic gaits are correct. But I’m unlikely to ever be at the level you are, so immense natural talent isn’t necessarily something I look for in a horse.

[Arlomine]

Not enough information.
How is the loin connection on this horse?
Do her hocks make circles from stifle-back, or stifle-forward?
Does she lift her withers when she pushes off when excited?
In my opinion, the tendencies of the horse to move through their body, especially their loin, and to connect to lifting the thorasic sling is a really big deal.

[OceansAway]

Unfortunately, I really don’t have the working vocabulary to describe what I’m seeing in greater detail. Most of the conformation terminology, while familiar to me, is hard for me to identify physically on a horse. I am not in a rush and largely do most of my own riding with help from my trainer, but I am not an in-hand wizard (though trainer actually is very gifted with that), and do worry that I might become distressed over time worrying about her development, because I tend to over-think and worry.

I can inbox what I have to whoever is interested in taking a look, but don’t want to post publicly in order to protect the seller. I don’t have too much, as I didn’t request lots of pictures after my trainer expressed her concern.

[hoopoe]

why is this horse not in work if they are marketing her. That alone is a red alert.

I dont think a weak hind end, breed related or not, lends itself to progressing up the levels. Some horses appear to be “good movers” but what they have is flashy legs without proper back and abdomen ability

As someone said a 4yo , average mover can be greatly improved through proper training and a few more years of normal maturation and growth.

If you want more of a guarantee about forward progress and ability you are going to have to up your budget.

[OceansAway]

She’s in work, just not regular work and it’s because their training barn is full with client’s horses. This is not a dressage barn.

I have thought about waiting and saving but fear the prices of horses will keep rising at a higher rate than I can feasibly save. I might be better off buying now. I just read an article about that happening too, and it freaked me out.

[SusanO]

I audited a clinic last weekend with someone who has trained multiple horses to Grand Prix. Everybody was sitting around talking horses at lunch. He talked about how much better horses were these days and he had seen one recently that was fantastic. Horse had a 12 canter, an 8 trot and a 6 walk.

1. Consensus was you buy the canter. A lot can be done to improve the trot. A 6 walk is a piaffe walk as long as it is regular and no lateral tendencies. Huge walks are the devil to collect.
2. The horse has to be trainable. He saw another young horse that the owner of the fabulous horse owned. Beautiful mover but very difficult. Kicked out at the leg, etc. Not a particularly good prospect.
3. The horse has to have the ability to carry behind. This includes the hind end structure - good angles, large enough joints to stay sound doing the work.

[Moon_River]

@OceansAway

She’s in work, just not regular work and it’s because their training barn is full with client’s horses. This is not a dressage barn.

Well, could be true, could be a complete fiction. The way you’ve phrased that makes it sound like the horse is owned by a professional, just not a dressage professional. I would really expect a professional selling a horse to make working it a priority for the short time it should take to market and sell it.

[Djones]

@OceansAway

an obviously undetermined temperment and work ethic once started.

These are also unknowns with the distant mare. I am too particular, I really do have to touch a horse to know. I’ve sat on thousands of horses over the years. Some I just don’t care for their minds, their attitude, their juju. Doesn’t matter if it looks like (insert model Dressage horse) if it wants to sull and resent direction and worse yet, has no discernable gas pedal. I HATE pedaling a horse. I have to know the brain.

I turned this:

into this, because I learned about dressage and his amazing brain needed it.

[soloudinhere]

Take the average mover with the good mind and train ability.

The gaits can be improved SIGNIFICANTLY on a horse who is willing.

[OceansAway]

Ah yes, I see what you mean. The horse is owned by a breeder, and she didn’t have the right movement for the discipline they breed for, it is still at the training barn.

[crthunder]

My horse will be 20 in March and is an average mover for dressage at best. But he has been super trainable and a work ethic that doesn’t have a boundary. He has a weak and short back (very prone to tight muscles in cold) and other than his back issues, I wouldn’t change a thing. Back issues are a lot to deal with. We are hoping to finish our gold medal this year so average movers can do it! And I’m also an amateur and did all the training myself with lessons. So another vote for the average trainable 4 year old…

[Training_Cupid]

That sounds like my horse. He is 15.3 and wears a 70 blanket. Any tips you found helpful for loosening him?