Weaning - self-doubt...

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Evening all,

I have some questions about weaning. For those who recognise this user name, I put up the thread about the unexpected foal I found myself in possession of. The short version is: I bought a riding mare, who turned out to be in foal. I rode her up until five weeks prior to delivery, when she dropped a belly, and the following vet exams (plural) revealed that she was, indeed, up duff. A very short “gestation” period followed (five weeks from Go! to Whoa! Quite long enough thank you), and then I came home from work to discover… ta-dah! Baby!

(Long version is … here

Well… it’s been FIVE MONTHS since Polaris arrived, how time flies. It’s now about the time when I’ve been considering weaning - or should I say, we have commenced the weaning process. Three days in and I’m having doubts… and questions.

Firstly, I am not weaning because of the mare’s condition. The mare is under saddle 5-6 days a week and looks fabulous. If her udder today is any indication, she is a milk machine as well. Lots of work, lots of milk, lots of conditions … and on minimal feed. What’s not to love…

I have been trawling around multiple forums, websites, breeding manuals, and ask-a-friends for the last few weeks, regarding the question of WHEN TO WEAN. 4-6 months, 7-8 months, 11 months, let the mare do it, do it late, do it early…

I decided that now may be a good time. it’s the riding “down time” of the year, due to the weather, the feed in the paddocks is lush and green and I have multiple paddocks that I can use - not always the case. In this respect, I am weaning for my own selfish needs and this makes me feel that nagging doubt. Am I weaning too early?

On the other hand, the filly is very independent. I have been riding the mare in the next paddock (so no access to the milk bar for 1-2 hours, including tacking up, grooming, cooling off etc) for about 6 weeks now, with NO issues. The filly and the other mare (remember the foal thief, horse-hating mare?) now engage in mutual grooming, the filly follows the mare around happily and is content to know that mum will return… soon.

The filly is in very good condition, and also not on much hard feed.

I have no doubt that mentally the mare and foal are in a good place for weaning. What I’m worried about is that by weaning “too early” I might stunt the filly’s height. She is 12 hands high at present. Mum is 16 hands high, and the sire apparently 14.3 - though that was at 3 yrs old, and I’m not sure on the accuracy of this measurement.

I’m also feeling bad for the mare. The way I’ve gone about weaning is the “gradual process” where I’ve been putting the foal and the aunt mare into an adjoining paddock for the daytime, and all three back together at night. By nightfall, the mare is so full of milk that tonight she was running fountains of it down her legs. She has been hunting for the filly, calling out to her, and coming over to me in some distress due to her udder. The filly has been ignoring her… ! As soon as they are back in together, the filly has a drink and the mare groans in relief.

My plan is to do the half-days away from the mare for about a week, then next weekend I will permanently separate the mare and foal until the mare is dry.

Am I doing the right thing? Is the filly physically too early to be weaned - do I risk stunting her height? I’m worried about my mare getting mastitis; I’ve cut her feed to a third, and won’t be riding her until she is a few weeks into the dry process.

A friend of mine said, “don’t be in a hurry”; but damnit I want to be able to use my mare again! If the filly can be safely weaned now, then… why not. I also know of a filly that at 20 months old is still on the teat… and the way Velvet is producing milk, the filly could die of old age and still be having the occasional suck! I am not re-breeding the mare at present, so the old “she’ll kick her away when the next one comes along” won’t work.

Sorry for the novel. Any advice is welcome.

Here is a photo from today:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1488231_10152648789408345_1364762914_n.jpg

She is a very solid little horse!

[khall]

The way I wean is cold turkey. If your filly is that independent she will probably not worry about the weaning process at all. Mom probably will be more concerned. Separate them as far apart as possible (I have even taken mare off on occasion), no feed for the mare, give her a week or so for her milk to dry up and get used to no baby.

I know some who do the gradual weaning thing, just never seemed like a good idea to me. I have weaned as early as 4-5 months but prefer 6-7 months. The last one was at just over 7 months, both mare and foal were ready to be separated.

[Laurierace]

I would just separate them and be done with it. She will be full for a few days then all will be well.

[JB]

You’re not going to physically stunt the fill at this point

However, can you wait another month? Weaning “too early”, barring some real physical reason, isn’t about foal independence, it’s about what the dam is still teaching her.

If you really just want/need to get on with it now, then I agree, cold turkey.

If the mare is in good condition, or especially if she’s on the lean side, then there’s no need to cut her feed. You can move her over to a regular, lower protein feed if you were feeding a higher protein mare/foal feed, as she doesn’t need the extra protein for lactation.

[Sugarbrook]

I have been doing this for 29 years and I say “cold turkey” is the only way to go. At 6 months its a great time.

[DLee]

I have weaned the foals I’ve had gradually, the way you are doing it, and it has worked out absolutely fine. I did do it later (7-8 months) but I have a small farm so that’s the way I did it and it was easy and no stress.

[BaysofourLives]

I agree w/ everyone else, cold turkey is the best (kind of like ripping off a bandaid!). When I weaned both of mine last year, I mom and baby in stalls next to each other (I have bars between stalls) so they could still touch but not nurse. Both of them were totally fine. 2nd day I put a horse in between them, a little anxiety in beginning but then fine. By the night of the 2nd day I put dam out and left baby in, switched around next day. Never had any problems

[stoicfish]

To prevent mastitis development, “you want the mare to dry up as quickly as possible” after weaning, says Tracy. “Keep her outside with plenty of exercise. Reduce her nutritional intake for a week or so. We only give the mares enough (feed or hay) to keep them coming up from the pasture so we can monitor them.”

Some people believe they should milk out the mare themselves because her udder is so large and uncomfortable. “This is the worst thing to do,” cautions Tracy. “It just prolongs the ordeal of drying up. After a week or so, the udder should begin to shrink. If it’s still huge at that time, have your veterinarian examine it more closely and make sure the mare doesn’t have mastitis.”

The Horse http://www.thehorse.com/articles/30979/udder-issues-for-the-mare

I have always understood that you do not want to prolong (cow or horse) a full bag as it increases the chances of infection. To allow the foal to nurse once in a while, which leaves the mare with a full bag most of the day, is not healthy for her.
I do not know about the “right” age. I personally think a horse is more secure with themselves if they are older when weaned but that is purely an opinion and all horses are different. Over the fence weaning seems to get the most recommendation from literature and antidotal evidence.

[beowulf]

Cold turkey would be my experience and suggestion too. I never understood why prolonging the process by doing it in little jaunts offered any benefit at all: seems to get both parties more worked up than they need to be when you can just cut the cord (so to speak)!

But I agree with JB - what is more important at this stage is anything else the mare has yet to teach her. Some of the younger horses I’ve worked with that were separated earlier seemed to have some, er, socialization gaps, so I’d always keep that in mind.

Her spotting really has changed since your first pictures! IIRC, is she going to “grey out”?

[Wayside]

While the mare’s udder will be pretty full and uncomfortable at first, she will dry up a lot faster if you take the foal off completely.

One other thing to consider, depending on your location, is pasture footing. I try not to wean when it’s really muddy or icy, in case someone does feel the need to do a little running and screaming.

[Home_Again_Farm]

Ditto stoicfish. I would wait until the foal is 6 months old and then wean cold turkey. I prefer an across the fence weaning, as it has been the most stress free in my experience.

[VirginiaBred]

Weaning By The Signs for the February/March would be February 27th and 28th and March 1st and 2nd.

The next best days are March 26th - March 29th.
Definitely do the “cold turkey” method. Recovery time for both mare and foal are so much faster.

[JB]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7445853]
IIRC, is she going to “grey out”?[/QUOTE]

Yeah Hopefully the OP will continue to share pics so we can all enjoy her spots as long as we can!

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Thank you all for your advice! I’m currently home with the flu (sniffle) and have already separated the mare and foal for today, so perhaps I will just… leave them separated. I did find a research paper that supported the notion that early v late weaning shouldn’t affect mature height, though being of a science background there were some holes in their methods…

Yes, the baby will grey out, or so the genetic book tells me. Interesting though to see that her mane and tail, as well as her legs and head, were born black and have gone roan, whilst the spots have not. The spots are a deep glossy black. It can take up to eight years for them to go completely white.

My other mare, not the mother, is “white” with a mottly nose and face. If you wet her down, she’s got a pink blanket with a couple of spots, and some mottling over her chest and withers, plus a few white socks. When I bought her as a 9yo, I assumed that she was a few spot appaloosa; she had one visible spot on her face. Over time - I’ve had her 7 years now - the spot has faded without me even noticing. She now has no spots and is 16 years old. From what I know now, i think she’s actually a grey x appy, as she is no purebred appy.

Now I know why the Appy association of Australia won’t permit grey genes in the studbook - too many factors in the colour equation.

The foal is being reg’ed with the Lipi Association as a part-bred, too, FWIW…

[JB]

That’s awesome you can get her registered

It can take a lot longer than just 8 years to fully go “white”, so don’t be surprised if she’s 10/12 still with some color

[JWB]

I weaned mine at seven months. Cold turkey. They went from living with moms to living with grumpy old gelding. It was a non-issue. Foals hollered the first night without moms. The colt needed a few not-so-subtle reminders that Luke would not be providing any milk. Moms quite frankly seemed to be relieved. Within a month one of the mothers was living in a paddock next to her baby and I’ve only seen her even “talk” to him twice (once when he was having a fit with the vet about vaccinations, once when he was worried about a pig). Although she was super protective when she was with him, she is DONE with him now.

Get it over with and done, or wait a month or two more. If they’re ready, cold turkey will not be as traumatic as people make it out to be.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Thanks JWB, we are on the second day of “cold turkey” and Mum is going to need a bath today as she has white caked milk legs, poor darling. The foal hasn’t fussed much at all - if anything, it’s Mum who fusses (and I think more so because of the milk factor). I hope this passes soon, I hate seeing my girl in distress

[JWB]

Poor girl! The full bags of milk are the worst bit. Less food and more exercise for mom will help her get through this bit.

[rodawn]

It won’t be long. They get messy legs and their udder is full and uncomfortable, but this passes in a few days. Mom needs lots of natural exercise - so it is best to put her out with a bunch of other horses that she is familiar with. She can console herself with her buddies. I have not found that “cutting” food is all that helpful, except that I don’t grain horses that aren’t busy being moms, so that is the only change. Otherwise, they go out to grass and can eat whatever they want. This has never affected how fast or slow they dry up.

I wean mine cold turkey. Usually when I wean it’s fall, so I go out and spread out breakfast hay in a bazillion piles, some in the front corral and some behind and beyond. I wait opportunistically and when the foals are all in one area of the front paddock I quietly close the back gate (I can divide my paddocks). Then I quietly, surreptitiously halter a horse and quietly lead to the back paddock to join other horses eating those piles of hay. The foals are so busy eating they have never noticed, in all the years I do this, that horses are … um… disappearing from around them! :uhoh: I leave one or 2 experienced Aunties with them. The mares don’t care until their udders are full and then they might stare at the fence and peer o’r yonder at their kids, but then soon enough they go off to graze in the fall grass, coming back up every couple hours to check-in on the babies. The foals might yell one or two times, but then it soon stops too. Udders stop dribbling within a week and shrink back down to more normal size in a few months.

I have found that the mares seem reassured they can see their babies are safe, so I also prefer the fence weaning situation, except mine are technically at 90-degree angles, so there is no reaching over or through the fence, no matter what.

From that point, they’re separated for most of the winter. I did put them back together in February and it was a non-issue. Mom and baby sniffed noses and said hello, but they eat at separate piles and act pretty much like they’re just another horse in the herd.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Thank you, Velvet is looking much happier today (I think a gram of Bute in last night’s feed tub and a cold hose over the udder helped too…)

Today we had a big test - I took the aunt Mare away from the foal, and took her for a ride out of eyesight (but within earshot and rescue distance!). Foal still had Mum over the fence for company. A couple of whinnies and that was that. Everyone just grazed quietly until we came home. Phew! Once Mama Bear is feeling less like a dairy cow, then I will start taking her off site, leaving Aunty “home with the kid”. There will always be someone to babysit - just maybe not on the same side of the fence…

Another question I have now: when is it considered “safe” to return the foal to the same paddock as the mare? I am looking at boarding (agisting) the foal at a stud nearby for 6 - 12 months - if I can bear to let her off the property! - for the sole purpose of allowing her to run and buck and play with other young horses, not just grumpy Aunty and stoic Mama. However, should that not occur, then at some point everyone is going to be back in the same paddock…