WEC Ocala shows to run under NSBA

Grand Oaks is NOT competing with any h/j venue in the “season”. It’s calendar is packed from December thru March and those cabins are booked for a different winter crowd. But if you want to have an almost illegal amount of fun, you should go to GO during that time (or Black Prong or FHP) and watch a CDE. Many of our finest drivers are former hjers.

Also, ADS leaving is more complicated. Some of the USEf stuff change into play, but more of it was related to their recreational arm, it’s not a good comparison to saddlebreds or ushja by any measui. That said, it’s been NOT GOOD for all the members who compete in my experience. And by not good, I mean ridiculous. But so far, as a competitor, USEF is edging out ADS… Which ultimately means everyone is losing, because a recreational/educational mom that divorces from a competitive dad screws over the children most of all.

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I met a few at the last USDF show I attended - they are a really nice group! But see, there is a mileage rule and HITS Ocala has those winter dates, so it doesn’t matter that the GO (or even the FHP) is packed December through March.

Why would you add the best facility in the country to a town that already has 3 active venues when there is a known mileage rule? Nobody has answered that question.

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Why? Because … opportunity. You don’t build it in Nebraska. Florida is simply the highest density horse state in the country. TX and CA have more equines, but have huge geography to traverse. Central Florida is easily accessible to the entire state. When you add to that the high level of dissatisfaction with HITS, how is this area NOT at the top of your list??

I’m pretty sure the WEC team didn’t enter this thinking they would crack the mileage rule on their first attempt, that’s just unrealistic. He’s in it for the long game, I’m sure. Granted COVID-19 can play an unexpected role in this, but if someone told me he negotiated those USEF dates with the NSBA idea in his back pocket all along, I would not be surprised. My thoughts are that someone got played, but it wasn’t WEC.

And yes, driving people are great, I love that STRIDE does shows for both, even if it is challenging for some of the ridden crew! Fun side note, we had a clinic there last year the same weekend as an hj schooling show. A few of us were just having fun blasting through the water hazard and some kids were watching us. It’s only took a littler encouragement before we had them galloping through on their ponies!! (It looks like this when you really have fun)

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He probably built WEC in Ocala because they have had a farm here for their QH operation for years.

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Just a guess… Perhaps because they are (understandably) looking forward to some International interest. The FEI will have a difficult time explaining why none of the International competitors that love Florida in the winter, will be allowed to compete at this lovely facility, because USEF objects, for no good reason. :sunglasses:

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USHJA cannot break off from USEF without difficulty because the hunter and jumper disciplines are so intertwined in our show system. How many shows do you go to that are hunters only? How many are equitation only? How many are jumpers only? As long as trainers continue to want everything at one show, the USHJA has to remain as the USEF affiliate for hunters and jumpers to fulfill the requirements of the Ted Stevens Act.

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Eventer here,
Why do you have to be a member of both USEF and USHJA to do the low levels? In eventing, until you get to prelim (maybe modified now) you only have to be a member of USEA. Not until you get to the international level equivilent do you have to have a USEF membership.

Why does the hunter world require everyone to have a USEF membership (same with dressage)?

Looking at the omibus for a show:
USEF Endorsed/USEA Recognized: PT,T,TN,N,BN (These you only need USEA membership)
USEF/USEA Recognized: CCI3-S,CCI2-S,I,IP,P (These you need USEA + USEF and for the FEI, also FEI)
USEA Recognized Tests: Starter (This you need no memberships to show)

Why can eventing have shows with multiple different memberships depending on the show, but in hunter/jumpers you have to have both USHJA and USEF, and dressage has to have USDF and USEF, even for the intro of intro levels? For eventing, you still pay a drug fee for the USEA divisions. If dressage or hunter jumper moved this way, it would be cheaper too, 1 less membership every year, and I as an eventer would probably be more likely to cross over into the other shows.

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Echoing that the Driving Society is a terrible example. They were not interested in being governed. Specifically, being subjected to drug tests.

Likewise, no other “sport” has “disciplines”. Soccer is soccer. Tennis is tennis. Diving, Ice Skating & Gymnastics all have different elements, but all take place under the same roof with basically the same specs. With Equestrian we’ve got stadium, cross-country & endurance requirements that simply don’t overlap. And as we all know, there is no common-ground whatsoever that would allow for comparing the costs of soccer & horseback riding.

The discipline is Hunter/Jumper and that bed is made. Thus, USHJA cannot just “walk away” and still keep showjumping in the Olympics. I also don’t think it fair to blame all this on the hunters and go down that “Woe is horseback riding in America” path. We do hunters. We like hunters. Hunters have been the path of expansion in US equestrian sport. And just heck, not everyone wants to go fast while negotiating hurdles atop a sentient creature.

Can there be parallel circuits? Looks like we’re going to find out, but it’s gotta be more than just 12 weeks in winter in Ocala before it has any bearing on 90% of this sport. There’s another new facility in OH that looks to be quite nice - Brave Horse. It does have some USEF dates but being only 90 miles from WEC OH I’m sure they are limited to the leftovers. I’m curious to see if the NSBA phones aren’t ringing off the hook from folks like that.

Should there be a successful launch of a parallel circuit I will be bummed if it falls under this NSBA umbrella and was not instead engineered from the ground up by actual HJ people. I fear many of our concerns & complaints re: horse welfare & level playing fields can only be fixed by scrapping & re-building the sport with those issues at the forefront of mind, and this may be the one & only opportunity to do so.

An Ocala horse show option no one seems to be mentioning: Fox Lea in Venice. They’ve been running a competing winter series for years that is USEF rated even though it is < 200mi from HITS. I have no idea how that’s been licensed?.. ah, looks like they are “Regional” recognized… which is what WEC wanted for the remaining weeks. I know of several resident Ocala trainers that escape HITS each year for a few weeks at Venice. Had WEC Ocala been awarded Regional status it would have surely affected attendance at Fox Lea.

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Brave Horse is a nice facility, I’ve been once. The footing is nice and the permanent stalls are nice, the tent overflow stalls were not but I imagine they have resolved that issue since as this was a couple years ago. Their management also ran a painfully slow show a couple years ago and I assume that has since improved also. They have done well for themselves running lots of A and B rated shows and running the Ohio Derby Cup which offers a derby class down to the 2’ height. I’m based in the Cincinnati area so we stick to WEC because we can stay at home and avoid hotel costs. They have also run a few shows for the Split Rock Jumping Tour that have done well. The facility is not the same caliber as WEC (not much is) but they do very well for themselves and I think they usually sell their shows out even when they overlap with WEC.

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This idea makes the most sense, but would it do anything for the mileage rule as far as USHJA sanctioned events is concerned?

From my brief perusal of the NSBA rules, looking the most at the working hunter rules, they seem to be more restrictive from a health and welfare perspective. More limitations on bits. No roweled spurs in English disciplines (this probably is meant for Western style rowels, but of course there are a variety of rowels and are roller-style blunt spurs a gray area?) NSAIDs are permitted within 24 hours of competition, but I see nothing about Robaxin or Dexamethasone or other exceptions permitted under USEF D&M rules. The blood rules are closer to dressage rules.

My understanding of the NSBA rules from a barn mate who has shown at QH Congress is they may actually be more strict in their drug policy because they identify classes of drugs that are not permitted, not just names of drugs like USEF. Which theoretically allows for new or renamed drugs to slip through. She is a pharmacist so she is intimately familiar with how easy it is to just rename something. I have not read the rule book yet so I haven’t made the comparison myself.

Is that a serious question or rhetorical?

The AHSA was the American HORSE SHOW Association, an association of Horse Shows. Humans only joined if they were officials, if they were going for year end points,or if they were competing in the AHSA Medal classes (hunt seat, saddle seat, western). Otherwise, there was no point in joining. Most of the shows were Hunter/Jumper, and that is where the AHSA focus was.

I have an AHSA rule book from the mid 1960s. For Combined Training (which is nowadays called Eventing) it said “Contact the USCTA fo Combined Training Rules”. (The lowest levelwas Preliminary) It was some time before they included Combined Training rules in the main rule book, and the USCTA (now USEA) worked hard to maintain their independance from USEF, even though they ceded the official rule-making to them .(Even in the last month, I have been in meetings where the USEA "powers that be"were complaining abut USEF interfering in the calendar process.)

On the other hand the AHSA itself ran EVERYTHING related to Hunter/Jumper(and Western, but that was a much smaller number). The other breeds/disciplines each had their own organization/affiliate, which took care of a lot of the administrative stuff.

By the late 80s (if my memory is correct) people in the other disciplines complained that THEIR dues were being used to support hunter/jumper people, and they didn’t like it. They basically forced the AHSA to create the USHJA, which would collect money from hunter/jumper competitors, and fund the h/j administrivia. (When they first started USHJA, you coud compete in h/j without joining USHJA if you had a USEF card and a USCTA card.)

So USCTA/USEA and USDF started as independant organizations and CHOSE to affiliate with AHSA/USEF. USEA kept as much independence as they could (including control of the lower levels), while USDFceded almost everything except education and awards to USEF. But USHJA was CREATED BY USEF to appease the other disciplines, so would find it very difficult to secede.

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The point wasn’t WHY they left. The point was that it is possible to leave.

I agree completely. There is no common ground whatsoever, which is why it is absurd to latch the hunter set under an NGB who rules hunterland like it’s an Olympic sport.

I never blamed the hunters. The hunters are actually the victims here! They are paying the price for a sport in which they will never compete! How crazy is that? It’s like asking Arena Football players to pay for the NFL - the two sports involve a football and a ring and that’s about it. I don’t see Arena football players subject to NFL rules.

[quote=“dags, post:270, topic:750635, full:true”]

The discipline is Hunter/Jumper and that bed is made. Thus, USHJA cannot just “walk away” and still keep showjumping in the Olympics. [/quote]

No, they cannot walk away and keep show jumping in the Olympics. They could, however, walk awat and turn showjumping over to the NGB itself. Or could create a spinoff (which is what the NSBA just did in a whopping 2 weeks or so). They CHOSE not to. Their CHOICE. You say the bed is made? That is an excuse because NSBA just made a whole new bed in a much nicer hotel! Again, there was no innovative solution - just excuses. The same ones. Over and over again. It’s getting old.

Use your riding skills here - if you kept trying the same approach to a jump over and over again and your horse kept refusing it, would you not try a different approach? Well, WEC and the NSBA just outrode the USHJA - they chose a different approach. And they will get some people over the proverbial wall that is keeping them out of the sport. Good for them!

Agreed, there needs to be more than 12 weeks in Ocala. But remember that Nike started out with waffle trainers made on a waffle irons and were made by hand for a small select few. Do you really expect a new org to come out of the box running? Look at Western Dressage - they have grown immensely in a few short years as a breakout organization.

We don’t know if we don’t try, and I would consider this a pilot program. And so far I don’t see USEF/USHJA doing anything to solve this issue so it’s nice that NSBA stepped in.

Something that is funny, very few of my AQHA/APHA/ApHC friends had even ever heard of depo, which was WIDELY used in hunters. That says a lot about the sandbox in which we play. Perhaps it is the NSBA who should be worried about what drugs the hunters will bring with them.

That is a great facility! I like the atmosphere and how you feel like you are visiting someone’s farm - not quite Brownland but still that non-commercial feeling. I wouldn’t personally consider that in the Ocala proximity, though - it’s another 2.5 -3 hours south! But if we are going to mention FL facilities, we also have TPA and JAX to consider - both of which are significantly closer to Ocala than Venice. There are lots of great facility options in FL to compete for dates…

This has been a fun thread, but I’m stepping out for a bit. I am happy to see that since USHJA/USEF so badly botched this by creating a date monopoly that we are now seeing an entirely new membership option. Having shown USDF and WDAA shows this year, I am excited to have a new option as I have had the benefit of seeing that it is possible to treat members fairly and to find creative solutions to the problems of today. We all know that competition drives innovation and fair pricing, and it’s nice to see NSBA/WEC leading the charge. Funny that it took a bunch of cowboys and a man with a great facility to provide a potential fix for a hunter/jumper problem.

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Serious question, I was not aware of the history of the organizations, just thought it was interesting the differences between how they where run. Thanks for the history lesson!

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I don’t think it would help the mileage rule, but not sure. Just thought it was an interesting dichotomy between the different disciplines which all fall under the USEF.

Trying to understand the mileage rule, based on what I am finding, it only applies to USEA competitions at Prelim/Modified and above (but I could be totally wrong). So it may help the with the mileage rule, but I was unaware of the history of USHJA/USEF, so that seems to complicate things.

But with eventing, you do not have multiple weeks of the same show. In the heart of area 3, Ocala or Aiken, there is a show offered each weekend during the winter months, but it switches between different venues. So the mileage rule probably works out fine if it is applicable. If you don’t like a certain venue, just wait and show the week after, because 1 facility does not have a stranglehold on the whole winter, like it seems like HITS has. It also forces venues to improve so that they won’t loose out on customers who just wait a week for better value.

Looking at the mileage rule, and my understanding is that the dates are only held for a year. Is it possible that next year USEF/USHJA would license both WEC and HITS on opposing weeks? And allow people to choose where they want to show each week? Would that go over better or worse than the current situation?

Reminder, I have no neck in this game, just an outsider looking in. Curiosity is getting the better of me.

Reply to: “I wish it was in a different place where the mileage rule would have been more of a non-issue. And being in Ocala doesn’t exactly make it accessible.”

The Roberts family has owned the WEC location land for decades, as Golden Ocala Golf Club and their very large private quarter horse horse breeding farm.

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Of course ADS could leave, anyone can leave. They aren’t indentured to USEF. But opinions are straight up more legit if one has a clue about the consequences of that decision before setting forth said opinions.

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Thank you @Janet for taking the time to do that. I was about to, but not as elegantly. Essentially USEA (with a different name) and USDF both predate USEF, whereas USHJA does not.

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I’m not sure I’m doing this correctly in this new format but to suggest that the QH people don’t know about depo (etc) is laughable. The breed shows could teach at Cornell with their expertise in better training through pharmacology and other more surgical modifications to the body horse to appear more compliant. That’s just a fact.

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