WEF Amateur Questions - Help!

But the AHSA, after several name changes, is US Equestrian. That sounds like a wannabe-inclusive name to me. And they just formed a “Grassroots Advisory Committee.” (On a that topic, not this one, I can’t figure out why Jennifer Baas is not a named member.) Over the course of the last 30 years or so, I think the Governing Body has, in fact, committed itself to serving horse show managers. That’s because the Mileage Rule effectively (albeit slowly) made horse show management into real estate investment and now that some folks have a great deal of money sunk into these large, dedicated facilities. So do folks who bought farms in places like Wellington’s Grand Prix village. And whether or not US Equestrian also wishes to support the interests of the BNTs who can afford to structure their careers around traveling from one 12-week camp to another, it de facto has done that, too. Or it would be more accurate to say that the AHSA/USEF/USE structured horse shows as they did and the rest of the industry sorted itself into those who could afford to do that and those who could not. So I am not sure whether the look toward the “grassroots” by US Equestrian is lip-service or an effort to rake back in the memberships of the vast swath of riders who have been left out of their focus on the economic elite or what.

And not for nuthin’ but the Governing Body just handed the AQHA a marketing strategy that matches your “Here is what we offer. Here are the rules. Join or not, as you wish.” Folks accepted that rather rude “invitation” and took their money, their feet and their wallets to Western World. With its “America’s Horse” tagline, all the AQHA had to do was sound Populist within a rhetorical environment of elitism created by the AHSA/USEF and perhaps, still, USE. Oh, and the AHA (Arabian Horse Association) has been making some noise (among its membership) about leaving USE as far as regulating their own shows. I don’t know how large the AQHA’s membership is, but there is profit in collecting lots of money from little people as opposed to collecting more money from a few rich people. And I think USE knows it has a problem. It can no longer afford that imperious elitism you recommend.

I don’t mean that last comment as a dig at the USE. Rather, I mean that as a description of the rhetorical position they (or you for them) have adopted, and I mean to say that they know it’s not working the way they’d like anymore. But, as must be clear, there is a big snowball of money and power rolling along in the elite direction it is, and those people are not going to lay down and allow USE to change direction.

And, to return to the initial point is that the stuff that makes USE go in one direction or another, or serve folks in one tax bracket or many-- isn’t really about only running horse shows.

I think any effort to make divisions so that “like competed against like” would be

  1. Sportsmanlike
  2. Welcomed by USE membership
  3. Conceptually possible (there are lots of ways horses and riders are grouped together in Western World that don’t apply here, They could)
  4. Practically possible

And, yeah, at small shows, divisions would get combined. But that happens now and people alternately suck it up or encourage their friends to come show so that their division fills. So this is not a new and particularly horrible problem that should prevent the governing body of a sport from making competition seem like a genuine competition. I mean, FF’sS, this is an entirely man-made invention and organization. We made it all up, folks. So we can remake it at will (more or less). So the “Oh, the complexity of it all! Can’t possibly try” is a rather weak argument.

2 Likes

Are you arguing that, after taxes, braiding compensation is equivalent to typical pay for part-time barn work?

Maybe if they’re a super slow braider…
I’m in Canada so I don’t know what a 1099 is, and I braid and clip for cash on the side. But if I can charge $40 for a mane (1hour or less), $25 for a tail (20 minutes), and $120 for a full clip (under 2 hours), than a pro can charge more and do it faster. For comparison minimum wage is $14/hr here.

I generally make a couple thousand cash over the course of a year. Not enough to send me to WEF but it definitely helps. Not to mention I haven’t had to pay for anyone to braid or clip my own horses for almost 20 years.

I’m down here to show at WEF in the younger 3’3" A/O’s right now. You can get an idea of the scores you need to pin on the PBIEC website. These are first week scores mind you, horses are just getting acclimated–scores will improve significantly over the following weeks.

https://pbiec.coth.com/results/Detail/id/50438/ch/1

Also, first place rounds are view-able if you want to get an idea of the caliber of horses winning these classes.

It’s not uncommon for many horse/rider combos to come down here for the whole 12 weeks and not pin at all or pin 6th, 7th and 8th occasionally. If you come in with the mindset that might be a possibility and use WEF as a way to prep your horse for showing the rest of the season at home, the easier it is to manage your expectations against the best horses in the country.

3 Likes

I did two weeks two years in a row. My second year I pulled in top 3 placings both weeks in the 3’3 A/O out of 40 or so horses. The highlight of my riding career.

2 Likes

I see the consistent winner is an Ingram horse and I believe won at Indoors…$$$$$. Plus Martha is amazing.

I think that you’re referring to Lyons Creek Bellini. It is a very, very nice horse. Hunter Holloway won a bunch with it as a junior and then the Ingrams bought it. However, if you read through this thread, I’m 100% confident that the horse and rider being talked about is LM’s Belgravia. It was Grand Champion at every indoor show it entered the past two years. I think he actually won every class. Martha and LM don’t show at all the same shows but they both show at Capital Challenge. The past two years Belgravia has been Grand Champion and Lyons Creek Bellini has been Reserve Champion. I don’t think anyone would argue that those are two of the best (if not the two best) 3’3 AOs going nowadays. As you said, $$$$$. If the OP is paying attention, if those two horses are showing then they’re both tough to beat. It’s an awful lot of fun to watch them go head to head!

I always have a hard time getting that video to work off the WEF results page. Even when I am logged in. ? I’m talking about the free ones. :wink:

I don’t know what’s going on with the WEF site but if you want to see these horses go from recently…

Here’s one of Martha on Bellini from this summer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdFy_ubSUH8

Here’s one of LM on Belgravia from WIHS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSAkqMzH4Rs

I’m certain that there are many others available but these are the first that came up when I searched. I also don’t think that either of these horses show a lot - pretty much only the big shows. So they may not be showing at WEF until WCHR.

The Airport horse…I swear her Dad used to show it.

Only the first place rounds are free once you login. Otherwise it’s $5 per video.

I didn’t know the first place rounds are free. That’s a nice touch.

Yes. You are completely correct. John used to show it in the 3’6 AOs. Airport is 16 years old this this show year and has struggled with some soundness issues so they wanted to move him down to a lower height. So Martha is showing him in the 3’3 younger AOs. He’s a super horse who jumps a very nice jump at the lower height. Her other 3’3 AO Fonteyn is done so it’s a nice replacement for her at that height.

This is an altogether separate point but with Airport moving into the 3’3 AO some of the nicest hunters are now doing the low AOs instead of the 3’6. Interesting. Bellini, Airport, Belgravia, Largesse, Kingston, Antinori are all doing the lows. Also, same owners own all the best horses which is a little weird.

The same owners can afford the best horses. Not weird at all.

5 Likes

I’m the OP and I’ve been silently following along ever since I got beat up a bit for being too “whiny.” I want to say thank you for all the people who have added a helpful comment. I also want to wrap up by letting you know what I’ve learned and what I’m thinking and going to do.

  1. I’m going to make the great migration to WEF for weeks 7&8 since I’ve come to believe that is the best time to show without having to go against the ultra ammies.
  2. I’m going to be happy come what may no matter who shows and take this as an opportunity to measure myself.
  3. Without outright naming names the word is that the person I was speaking about is getting out of the hunters and showing Grand Prix horses mostly at WEF. I took a small beating because people thought I was complaining about riding against her but for goodness sake if you’re showing Grand Prix horses do you really belong in the low AOs? Also, she showed two weeks ago in a couple pro jumper classes and finished 1st and 2nd out of 50+. It’s not just showing with the pros, it’s beating them.
  4. I’m going to stand by my thinking that the best amateur rider on earth riding $$$$$$$$$$$ horses probably shouldn’t be showing in the lows. I know this is unpopular and seems like I’m complaining. But seriously, if you’re jumping high options at Derby Finals and 5’ fences against McLain than maybe not enter the low AOs.
  5. I love the idea a few people have said about further segmenting divisions by a novice or expert rating. That would be very fair. And if it gets combined then so be it. That happens a lot any way. There has to be a way to make the amateurs more fair.

My last thought is that it is awesome that this place exists to share ideas. I know a lot of people disagree with me. No matter. I’ve learned a lot listening to everyone’s thoughts and I’m really appreciative for everyone weighing in with their opinions. Thank you.

You’re being disingenuous. You make it sound like she’s only showing in the lows. She also shows in the 3’6 AOs too. My observation is that she regularly shows her horses in both the 3’3 and 3’6. People get hung up on the 3’3 horse because it does so well. No one complains about her winning the 3’6 most weeks too. I wish amateurs were more supportive of each other instead of being jealous and resentful of others’ success. I’d kill to ride one of those horses for one weekend. Let’s appreciate them instead of castigating those horses being in the same division.

6 Likes

Yep, still sour grapes. Maybe the horse is old, maybe it is young, maybe it doesn’t have the step to do the 3’6, maybe she just loves this horse and wants to show it where it’s most comfortable. Why does that matter? At all? I have a friend whose horse is now 20. It used to be a 3’6 a/o horse. Now she shows it in the modified adults with a big smile on her face. It beats the pants out of everyone in the ring. She loves the horse, she wants to show, and that’s all he’s got in him now. Not a big deal.

5 Likes

Add me to list of those who are in the “Yep, still sour grapes” camp. Maybe stop spending so much time looking up what others are doing, and spend more time working on yourself. Instead of creating goals that involve beating people you will never be able to compete with, set your goals based on your own performance; compete against yourself (make your goal to ride better than you did in the last class). And stop making negative assumptions and comments about your potential fellow competitors; no one likes a sore loser, and it’s easier than you think for people to figure out who you are based on your online presence. If you are going to be petty and obnoxious, you’re better off saving your money and staying home. If you can go for the learning experience and not complain about your fellow competitors, have a great time!

4 Likes

There are many MANY grand prix riders who would never ever ever be successful in the hunters. Ever. So just showing in jumpers, even at gp, and winning is certainly not a good reason to limit anyone’s showing in a very different discipline.

4 Likes