WEF Amateur Questions - Help!

[PlainJaneIAm]

First-time poster. Please be gentle!

I’ve been showing in the younger adults and have a goal of moving up to do 3’3 and maybe even 3’6. I finally have a horse that I think can take me there. I mostly show at Ocala in the winter. If I’m lucky, I’ll show 4-5 times this season. I noticed that almost all of the amateur champions at indoors show at WEF. Can anyone help me get a sense of how much more competitive the amateurs are at WEF compared to other places? Is it a huge difference? Is it worth it in terms of preparation for the rest of the year? I really want to use this season to improve my riding and don’t care as much about my ribbons. I think I’d rather see how I measure compared to the best amateurs instead of focusing on winning less competitive shows, but I also don’t want to waste money at WEF if it really isn’t that different.

I also have a question about amateur status. How can an amateur rider show in the first and second years at Devon and indoors against professionals and still be an amateur? If they’re competing against pros and even winning professional classes how can they also compete at the same show against amateurs? It doesn’t seem fair. I’m willing to invest in improving my riding if WEF will help me, but I don’t want to have to show against people who really should be pros. If you’re beating pros in pro classes at big shows like indoors and WEF, then how can USEF still consider you an amateur? Isn’t this defeating the spirit of amateurism? Thank you for your help! I need to decide if I’m going to do WEF or stay in Ocala this week.

[adelmo95]

As long as that amateur is not accepting money to ride and train other people’s horses they are considered an amateur. Success in different divisions has nothing to do with amateur status. There are plenty of amateur riders with the skill to turn pro who have made the decision not to for one reason or other. Some of these riders have spectacular horses and the skill to be competitive in any division. To me it is not defeating the spirit of amateurism, it is just the reality of the horse world and something that can motivate us to strive for continual improvement.

[PlainJaneIAm]

@adelmo95

As long as that amateur is not accepting money to ride and train other people’s horses they are considered an amateur. Success in different divisions has nothing to do with amateur status. There are plenty of amateur riders with the skill to turn pro who have made the decision not to for one reason or other. Some of these riders have spectacular horses and the skill to be competitive in any division. To me it is not defeating the spirit of amateurism, it is just the reality of the horse world and something that can motivate us to strive for continual improvement.

This is a really helpful perspective! Thank you! Yes, we should all strive for continual improvement which is one of my motivations to consider WEF. Instead of the spirit of amateurism, I think I should have said it as more of a fair play issue. If you’re the high point trophy winner in the first years at indoor shows, then shouldn’t you choose to focus on those divisions regardless of if you’re getting paid to do so instead of doing amateurs? It just doesn’t seem right or fair to me. I can be champion often enough in the 3’ adults, and I would never consider doing the lows because it wouldn’t be right. Most of the people that I show with and against would be very critical of a rider entering a division dramatically beneath their skill level. I guess I’m OK with trying to compete against the best amateurs but I worry it would be a waste of time and money (not to mention being very disheartening) if I have to show against people who are basically pros. Surely other people are frustrated by this? Or is it just me?

[supershorty628]

Amateur status has nothing to do with skill level. It only relates to being paid for services.

[ladyj79]

It’s totally fine to feel this way, but feelings have nothing to do with the line dividing amateur and pro.

Suggest you will be happier in horses if you give up on the idea of others adopting your sentiments regarding fair play, because you can’t really enforce rules predicated on feelings.

As someone who was a pro for years despite being not “good”, there’s a reason why the rules are what they are, and they’re still difficult to enforce and people still justify cheating this way and that and people still complain that life isn’t fair.

enjoy your horse, if you can afford to go to wef, do it, because its fun to be around so many crazy horse people, but don’t go if you’re going to grouse about how unfair it is that other people are better than you so you shouldn’t have to show against them.

[Princess_Sparkles]

People can show in whatever division they are eligible for. Sometimes it means someone a lot better than you is permitted by the rules to show against you. I’ve had plenty of people ride way better than me and beat me, and that is just the way it is. And I show in divisions meant for amateur weenies like me!

Amateurs who are good enough to show in open classes are not automatically pros just because they are competitive and they can certainly turn around and show in amateur classes as well. True ammies who aren’t skirting the rules in any way by training, teaching, schooling, etc for money SHOULD be rewarded by being allowed to show in ammie classes, even if they beat the pants off of everyone because they are so good.

Does it suck a bit when you see a big name amateur in a class with you, because you know your chances just got slimmer? Yeah, but that’s horse showing. You can still go out and give your best ride, because you never know what is going to happen (haha, I’m channeling an old coach with those words!).

If you have an opportunity to show at WEF and can handle doing it for the fun and experience of it, then go, because people like me would love to and probably never will. But if it has to be about being your idea of “fair” in order for you to enjoy it or get anything out of it, then don’t go, because it is never going to be. That’s sports, and that’s life.

[MHM]

If you can afford to go to WEF for a week or two, it’s well worth the trip, just to see the very best in action. If you won’t enjoy it unless you win, or unless you feel it’s a level playing field, you might better save yourself the money.

[mmeqcenter]

@PlainJaneIAm

I also have a question about amateur status. How can an amateur rider show in the first and second years at Devon and indoors against professionals and still be an amateur? If they’re competing against pros and even winning professional classes how can they also compete at the same show against amateurs? It doesn’t seem fair. I’m willing to invest in improving my riding if WEF will help me, but I don’t want to have to show against people who really should be pros. If you’re beating pros in pro classes at big shows like indoors and WEF, then how can USEF still consider you an amateur? Isn’t this defeating the spirit of amateurism? Thank you for your help! I need to decide if I’m going to do WEF or stay in Ocala this week.

There are no “pro classes,” there are Amateur classes, (Junior classes,) and Open classes. Open means anyone can sign up, whether they’re registered as Amateur, Pro, or Junior.

I show in Open and always have. I’m not a trainer, but I like to keep my options open, such as being able to sell a super nice horse on consignment for a friend. I have no qualms against competing against “real” Pros, makes no-never-mind to me.

I’ll second everything LadyJ said.

[LovesHorses]

You probably need a score of 80 or better to get an 8th place ribbon in the A/Os at WEF.

[Scribbler]

So the question is:

OP is hoping to move up to 3 foot 3.

OP is hoping to qualify for championships at WEF.

OP has noticed that at that level, they may likely compete against other amateurs who also show and place or win open.

OP is worried they won’t get any ribbons because the competition will be too stiff, because the other amateurs are too good.

Have I got that right?

All I can say is, well, that’s what it means to go up a notch and get into a level that real competition for you.

I can see that emotionally it’s hard to move on past the safety of being the local star at the lower levels.

Obviously you are unlikely to continue your same winning streak unbroken as you get used to a new more scopey horse and more complex as well as higher jumps. And much more competent competition.

You are probably going to lose a fair bit as you make the transition. Or rather, you are going to need to give yourself a year or two on a steep learning curve. Thats true of any time you make a jump in level at sport or education. Embrace it.

And dont sit up nights worrying about your potential competition at the 3 foot 6 championships until you actually qualify for the championships.

Right now it’s all very much in the future. Take it step by step.

[poltroon]

If you want to see what WEF is like before you lay down the money, there’s also the option to go and spectate. Maybe connect to someone who is showing so you have an excuse to hang around the barns a bit.

Very possibly, if you go to WEF the first time, you could come home without any ribbons. So then you have to decide if that’s a useful measurement for you.

Riding the best you can against the best there is is a rush and an experience like no other. So maybe the real question is, is the time next week or is it next year? You know where you are with your riding, with your horse, and with your life, and your goals.

There’s also the question of who will go with you. Events like this are much more fun with a group. If there’s an opportunity where friends are going that’s much more interesting than if you’re headed there alone.

The very first time I competed in eventing I had Jil Walton in my division, freshly back from the Olympics. Getting to ride in the same class as the best in the world - even if they’re riding a TB that’s been under saddle a couple of months - is its own kind of thrill, even being an also ran.

And finally, sometimes it’s worth going to a venue like that just for the great pictures you’ll get and be able to keep forever, maybe longer than the ribbons.

[PNWjumper]

I will reiterate what everyone else has said. “Amateur” has absolutely nothing to do with skill level or ability. I am an amateur who shows in GPs. There have been many times where I wish that the person beating me wasn’t in my AO division. But I’m sure there have been times where people have thought the same about me.

But to your point, there are restrictions in place regarding what a person can show in. For example, you cannot show in the AO and AA classes at the same time (and that rule crosses between hunter/jumper rings in addition to existing within the hunters and jumpers respectively). I don’t know what the rule is within the hunters (only), but on the jumper side of things, I cannot show in a class at or above 1.20m and simultaneously show in anything rated as an AA class, even if I don’t have an AO horse there. It kind of sucks when I have a baby horse that I would really like to put in the AA hunters (for example), but pros have even less classes available to them, so my complaints certainly don’t go far! And there are more restrictions in many of the local show associations. I think in NorCal the restriction is such that you can’t show at 1.20m+ and also set foot in any amateur division below a certain height (1.10m maybe?).

As you step into the AO divisions (and yes, that includes the 3’3" AOs) those restrictions on who can show in your division lighten up considerably. So you will, by virtue of having moved yourself to a higher level, be competing against people who also show at a higher level.

As others have mentioned, get rid of the notion of “fair” as it relates only to yourself. You will burn yourself out quicker than you can imagine. I mean, once they get rid of people with better records than you should they go after horses that cost more than yours? How is it fair to be sitting on a $15k hunter when someone else paid $250k for theirs? And how about those people who can afford to go to more shows than you? There’s a never ending self-pity black hole in the horse world. I always tell people that while they’re busy looking right at the people who have more than they do, they should remember every now and again to look to the left where there are a much greater number of people looking at them the same way.

[Blinky]

No offense but based on the questions you are asking you aren’t ready for WEF.

[IPEsq]

I thought the AO/AA cross over thing was just a zone rule? At least it used to be in Zone 4 (applicable to Florida), you could show in both AO and AA provided that you OWNED both horses (AA horse could not be a lease horse). This is for hunters. I’m not sure about the height difference issues in the jumpers, which I know has been narrowed. I used to show one horse at 4’ and one horse in the AA hunters but I know that would not be allowed currently. I find it hard to believe that someone like the OP couldn’t show the 3’3 AO and not be able to show the 3’ AA on a different, owned horse, but I may not be totally up to date on this rule.

I think giving WEF a try is a good experience. Nothing wrong with going for a week at some point in your life. Would I necessarily do that my first year in a division when I am hoping to place? Maybe not. For example, I went in my last junior year so my horse and I could get “seen” in that company before we went to Devon and indoors. Kind of more of a political move.

What I’m not following is how going to WEF will improve your riding. It won’t any more than going to HITS will. You will get miles in your division height and specs either way. Now, if you could be coached by someone excellent at WEF that you wouldn’t normally have access to or something, then maybe that would improve your riding.

[HonestPersonFakeAcco]

@PlainJaneIAm

I noticed that almost all of the amateur champions at indoors show at WEF. Can anyone help me get a sense of how much more competitive the amateurs are at WEF compared to other places? Is it a huge difference? Is it worth it in terms of preparation for the rest of the year? I really want to use this season to improve my riding and don’t care as much about my ribbons. I think I’d rather see how I measure compared to the best amateurs instead of focusing on winning less competitive shows, but I also don’t want to waste money at WEF if it really isn’t that different.

In an admittedly subjective nutshell - YES! The competition in the amateur owners at WEF is leaps and bounds better than it is at HITS Ocala or Coachella. Honestly, there is no comparison. The depth and quality of horses and riders alike at WEF are in a completely different universe than at Ocala and Coachella. Now, before I hear it from the hecklers, I’m not saying that there are no nice horses or quality riders at Ocala or Coachella (or other winter circuits, for that matter). I am offering my (hopefully informed) opinion that the depth and density of top quality at WEF is very unique. Of course, these are all top AA shows - these are the cream. I’m not criticizing - just observing. At WEF, you will generally have more entries per amateur owner division (think 20-30 per division) than you will have at Ocala or Coachella where 6-12 entries is far more common. You will never have “combined” olders and youngers. For a big show like WCHR week at WEF you could have 20-30 older AOs per division (both 3’3" and 3’6") 40-50 AOs per division (both 3’3" and 3’6"). Most every week, you will have multiple indoor and Devon champions in your division. But, it is precisely because the quality of competition is so much better that I would encourage you to go to WEF if only for a weekend. There is no other place that you can really gauge your performance against the best amateur hunters. I wouldn’t get too hung up on ribbons. The reality is that out of a class of 30 horses, there are only 8 ribbons. And the best riders often have multiple rides per division so only 4-5 people might walk away with a ribbon. At some point, we all ultimately compete against ourselves and we only get better if we strive to improve against the best. Personally, I’d rather compete against the best and get a brown ribbon than go home with a blue in a less competitive division. If you can make it happen, then you owe it to yourself to experience WEF.

[PlainJaneIAm]

@HonestPersonFakeAccount

In an admittedly subjective nutshell - YES! The competition in the amateur owners at WEF is leaps and bounds better than it is at HITS Ocala or Coachella. Honestly, there is no comparison. The depth and quality of horses and riders alike at WEF are in a completely different universe than at Ocala and Coachella. Now, before I hear it from the hecklers, I’m not saying that there are no nice horses or quality riders at Ocala or Coachella (or other winter circuits, for that matter). I am offering my (hopefully informed) opinion that the depth and density of top quality at WEF is very unique.

At some point, we all ultimately compete against ourselves and we only get better if we strive to improve against the best. Personally, I’d rather compete against the best and get a brown ribbon than go home with a blue in a less competitive division. If you can make it happen, then you owe it to yourself to experience WEF.

This is very helpful! Thank you! I think I’ve learned that I will need to manage expectations. It sounds like the hype around WEF is real and deserved. I may not be able to qualify for a national level championship but at least this will be an opportunity for me to see how I might perform in the big shows.

Are some weeks of WEF more suitable for a first-time exhibitor? Or is every week a grind?

Thank you very much!

[IMReserve]

@PlainJaneIAm

How can an amateur rider show in the first and second years at Devon and indoors against professionals and still be an amateur? If they’re competing against pros and even winning professional classes how can they also compete at the same show against amateurs? It doesn’t seem fair.

Who are the big, bad amateurs winning championships that have the ammies up in arms? Last time I checked, the top pros are winning these classes, and they’re not competing against 3’3 AOs.

[MHM]

@PlainJaneIAm

This is very helpful! Thank you! I think I’ve learned that I will need to manage expectations. It sounds like the hype around WEF is real and deserved. I may not be able to qualify for a national level championship but at least this will be an opportunity for me to see how I might perform in the big shows.

Are some weeks of WEF more suitable for a first-time exhibitor? Or is every week a grind?

Thank you very much!

The first couple of weeks in January are often a bit lighter, since not everyone is in full swing right off the bat. The week after WCHR week is often a little lighter, since many people will give their hunters that week off. The last week might be easier, since not everyone will stay to the bitter end.

Also, there are the spring shows that start immediately after the last week of WEF. The spring shows might be a little easier, since again, some people will give their horses a break or go home at that point. So you could do the last week of WEF, and then the first week of the spring series, if you wanted to have a little better shot at a ribbon or two. But really, it is competitive pretty much all the time. Some people go down in November and show until the end of April.

I would not recommend the WCHR week for a first timer to show. To watch, yes! But that week, the hunters show out on the big international field, which is a lot to take in for any horse. And the heavy hitters will be out in full force.

And by the way, welcome to the BB!

[HonestPersonFakeAcco]

@IMReserve

Who are the big, bad amateurs winning championships that have the ammies up in arms? Last time I checked, the top pros are winning these classes, and they’re not competing against 3’3 AOs.

Just guessing: Jane Gaston and Lindsay Maxwell. And, yes, overwhelmingly, it is mostly professionals successfully competing in open divisions. However, as has been pointed out, skill level is not a measure of amateur or professional status. There are definitely amateurs who are very competitive against professionals, and there are professionals who would be middle of the pack against the top amateurs. It’s a status indicative of compensation, not necessarily ability.

[PlainJaneIAm]

@MHM

The first couple of weeks in January are often a bit lighter, since not everyone is in full swing right off the bat. The week after WCHR week is often a little lighter, since many people will give their hunters that week off. The last week might be easier, since not everyone will stay to the bitter end.

Also, there are the spring shows that start immediately after the last week of WEF. The spring shows might be a little easier, since again, some people will give their horses a break or go home at that point. So you could do the last week of WEF, and then the first week of the spring series, if you wanted to have a little better shot at a ribbon or two. But really, it is competitive pretty much all the time. Some people go down in November and show until the end of April.

I would not recommend the WCHR week for a first timer to show. To watch, yes! But that week, the hunters show out on the big international field, which is a lot to take in for any horse. And the heavy hitters will be out in full force.

And by the way, welcome to the BB!

SO SO SO SUPER HELPFUL! Thank you! I think I’m going to plan for the last week of WEF and then the first two shows that spring. I’ll probably show 2 of those 3. 3 in a row is an awful lot for my guy. Based on what’s been said, I do think that I’ll try to drive down for the WEF WCHR show. It sounds like it’s pretty intense!