Intense is one word for it! :lol:
Good luck there! I hope you enjoy it. 
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The AA/AO cross entry thing used to be a zone-by-zone restriction. I actually got to call Fran Dotoli out on it via my trainer’s friend (another trainer) who was using her for some coaching at the time. They put a client in both the AA and AO hunters and I commented that they couldn’t do it. Fran’s response apparently was that they did it in FL and Capital Challenge. I noted that those were not Zone 10. Noting that I did not confront Fran directly–I was talking to my trainer in person while she was on the phone to her friend with Fran in the background. At one point my trainer said something to the effect that she’d bet on Peggy’s interpretation of the rules…
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So is it now everywhere you can’t cross enter? I could understand it when they also had the juniors and childerens restriction which I don’t think is a national thing (if so, a friend’s kid somehow squeaked by this last year). My point of reference is from when there was only the 3’6 AO. We are talking about only 3 inches here for this thread.
@IPEsq Here are the rules for zone 10, where you can’t cross enter between ch-aa hunters and any junior or AO hunters. There are also height restrictions. Jumpers it’s no cross entry bw ch/as and anything higher than 1.25 m.
Zone 10 - https://www.ushja.org/application/files/9315/4524/4733/2019_Zone_10_Specifications.pdf
You can get info for other zones by going to this USHJA page
https://www.ushja.org/zones-affiliates
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If I was going to WEF to spectate and was into Hunters? WCHR week is the one you want to see and really pay attention to,
OP, have you been to Devon and Indoors and watched the Regular, Open 4’ Hunters ( under whatever name it is currently being conducted, thought they no longer use the First and Second Year Green class names)? Or are you going by published results? Asking because published results list the horse and the OWNER, not the rider. Many AOs can ride those courses but turn the reins over to their Pro in such important classes and it is a great way to get national exposure and enhance their horses reputation as well as set the horse up for the owner to ride in their division later in the show.
The trick to dealing with " unfair" competition is to really watch and be honest about what it is that makes them more successful then you. That’s hard because you have to admit your horse is often not as high quality, you don’t present it in tne ring as well and your trainer is not as adept at turning out top Nationally ranked horses and riders as the really top trainers. BUT once you do accept that, you can certainly work to get closer then you are to that level. Might need to make some changes but you can use that challenge to raise your personal bar instead of expecting a lower bar in your division.
After all, you are complaining it’s not fair because they, their horses and their coaches are better then you therefore you should not be expected to have to show against them. That’s not an attitude that’s going to get you any better then you are today. Figure it out and try to take joy in what you can do and what you can improve. You’ll last longer in the sport.
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Ok so it is still by zone? Then my original point was that I think you can still cross enter in Zone 4 (FL)
You can in Zone 2, so long as you are the owner of the 3’ hunter.
First of all, thank you so much. I really appreciate your experience, perspective, and everything that you have to say. I have been to Devon and I’ve also been to WIHS and Capital Challenge. I worry that I’m not expressing my concern/frustration very articulately so it comes off like I’m complaining when I’m really trying to address an issue of fairness and sportsmanship. The person I’m thinking of owns AND shows her horses in open and AO divisions. She won a 4’ class at indoors two years ago and won a few first year classes at indoors this year. She’s also placed high at Derby Finals jumping 4’6". I understand that anyone can enter an open division - myself included. However, if you and your horse are good enough to actually win in those divisions and do well over huge jumps at Derby Finals, then is it really fair for you to show in the 3’3" AOs? I don’t think that’s good sportsmanship. If I showed in the 2’6" as someone who has been successful in the 3’, then I would upset other competitors because I was “showing down.” There are a lot of classes at big shows and I think that if your horses are good enough to qualify and show and win in open divisions then it is only fair that you not show them at lower levels. Lower levels often have less talented/experienced riders and less able/older/greener horses.Taking the winners from major national-level championships in open divisions and showing them in AO classes is just something that I wouldn’t do. I understand it may be within the rules but I don’t think it’s the right thing to do. Lots of amateurs spend a lot of time and money to compete against other amateur riders and some of these people are basically top professionals in terms of their ability and access to horses. If it isn’t a more level playing field, then I worry that amateur riders could be disheartened and stop showing. I get that I might be in the minority here. It is something that really bothers me.
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TLDR: Yes.
This seems confusing as the two rules seem to contradict each other, but this is from the USEF Rulebook (ETA upon further reading, the rulebook also states that for the AA Hunters, Zone rules trump USEF rules. So yes, it is still by zone, and if the zone doesn’t specify then it falls back to the rules below):
AO Rules:
5. Cross entry Riders may cross enter between the Adult Amateur (if Zone Specifications permit), Amateur Owner 3’3" and/or the Amateur Owner 3’6" sections. Horses may not cross enter between the sections.
AA Rules:
b. Horses and riders entered in the Adult Amateur Hunter sections may not compete in the Amateur Owner Hunter section at the same competition. Riders entered in the Adult Amateur Hunter sections may not compete in any other class in which obstacles are required to exceed 3’9" (1.15m) at the same competition. (Exception: USHJA National Hunter Derby)
Honestly, I have no idea which rules are where. I just know that I can’t show in the AO Jumpers and the AA Hunters in Canada, WA, and CA. The cross entry specifications are usually listed in prize lists.
I will also add that I understood the rule (more) before the million factions of AOs were created. It seems silly to me that if you ride a horse in the 3’3" AOs, you can’t ride another horse in the 3’ AAs. Same story with having a horse at 1.20m in the AOs and not being able to ride another in the 1.10m AAs. And doubly so since it’s only a restriction within the same show.
Confession: I know the person who I think you’re talking about and her team very well. This said, I’m not defending their practices. I am strongly disagreeing with you.
Have you ever stopped to consider that the same amateur showing against pros in opens isn’t “showing down” in the AOs? Instead, they are “showing up” in the open divisions. As an amateur, they are absolutely allowed to show in the adults or AO 3’3 or AO 3’6 as the zone rules may allow. For some riders, the fence height is more related to a horse’s age or experience than a want to “clean up.” Maybe the 3’ AA is a very green horse? Maybe the 3’3 AO is an older horse who needs to move down from bigger fences?
You say you don’t mean to complain, but, you sound like you’re complaining!
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That’s a really good way to look at it.
Maybe an amateur might want a bigger challenge occasionally in the open divisions in the same way that someone who usually shows at Ocala might want to try WEF. It’s just another way to raise your game by swimming in the bigger pond with the major fish.
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This is really the more accurate description. And if that same amateur stopped showing in the open divisions, they’d still be that good, so I don’t really get the “unfairness” argument. There’s really no way to make a good argument that just because someone is good enough to move up to the pro divisions, they should have to move on from the amateur divisions so that someone else can win.
OP, I think your argument isn’t going to get much traction because it basically comes across as “I want to show against people who are good, but not that good”! And if you don’t care about ribbons and just want it to improve your riding, as you say in the initial post, who you are riding against shouldn’t matter at all. So, why not look at it as a chance to see how you measure up? The ribbons you get in the toughest competition are the most satisfying, even if they aren’t all blue.
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Sage advice: Do not move up at WEF. I tried it, crashed and burned miserably. It was also my first WEF, so I had no idea what I was in for. Not super dissimilar to your situation I’d say. Hindsight, that first year I should have stayed in my division and moved up at a more “friendly” show.
I went back a year later, much better prepared. Got good ribbons in the 3’3 a/os (a few seconds, a few thirds, a lot of pastels, but never the elusive first). My high score was an 86, and it was an experience I’m so glad I had.
I detailed out my entire experience in a blog:
http://theworkingrider.blogspot.com/2014/01/wef-day-1-and-0.html
To start from the beginning. I can’t believe it’s been 4 years already, but it will give you a good feel for WEF.
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realistically, there isn’t any equine discipline out there that doesn’t put you in the same bucket (I’m guessing it may be true of more than just the horse sports as well). Yes, some (usually breed) associations have “limit” and “novice” divisions before you graduate to open, but those are really not for the top riders. Once you win your way out of novice and wade into the depths of the “open” division, it’s a a pretty steep drop, like kiddie pool to Mariana Trench kind of drop.
And while you are focusing on a few riders who cross over from ammy to open divisions, in general I have seen a lot more deer in the headlights look in people who campaign at smaller A shows to qualify for indoors or Devon and discover there is a whole other level of talent in the ammies and their horses out there, even the ammies who never even thought about entering an open division. And those same ammy riders are routinely giving the crossover ammies a run for their ribbons in the A/Os.
ETA - @Nickelodian I remember years (decades) ago when I was chatting with a rider who may have been one of the top hunter riders of the day, and she was talking about bringing back a 1st year horse after a minor injury and it really wasn’t going to be ready to compete in the 2nd years until halfway through (a much shorter) WEF. She expressed genuine horror at the idea of moving that horse up mid season at WEF. This prompted a discussion between us about how the fences just seem bigger there. We both thought they build a little mound under the standards to give them another inch or two of height. It felt reassuring to know there were seasoned pros who felt the same way as I did about WEF> 
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I’ll add, the circuits tend to sort this kind of thing out on their own. If you don’t want to show against the Amateur that also wins in the First Years at Indoors you don’t go to WEF, plain & simple. There are pleeenty of other shows where that very unique individual is not showing. And I’ll echo above, the competition is unmatched at WEF. Your scenario isn’t an example of unfairness, but a statement about the talent represented at that level of the game.
Also not limited to the amateur ring; imagine being a junior in the Tori Colvin era!
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I dunno…sounds like what you want to change the AO division into wouldn’t be fair to those deemed " too good" to compete there. Better be careful if you do get the rules changed, get good and start winning or you’ll be out too. Nothing like striving for mediocrity.
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I remember thinking the remaining juniors probably threw a party that December 1st! Not that there aren’t plenty of other talented juniors. But she was (figuratively) in a class by herself for years.
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OP, as a funds limited Ammy myself I know the feeling. I truly do. But I would encourage you to NOT compare the 3’6"+ “open” divisions and the A/O divisions as comparable in the sense that if you do and win in the open classes you therefore are “too good” for A/Os. They are two totally separate classes and divisions with a restriction NOT on skill but on professional status. So long as you don’t make money riding and showing horses you can show in open classes til the cows come home.
Go to WEF and enjoy it knowing that yes it’s great to ride against these AO superstars. Kids feel the same about the “pony pros” who do the ponies and the juniors at the same show, I’m sure. But when it comes to what’s fair and what’s not, so long as everyone is playing by the same rules, that is what we must have to accept as “fair.” Getting a chance to show there is something that many of us only dream of!!
The rider in question is showing in the AOs at AA horse shows. That’s the top, the division for the best amateur horses and riders in the country. Of course she belongs there. She may also be able to hold her own in the 4’ classes and the derbies. Those are divisions for the best hunters and the best professionals/amateurs/occasionally juniors in the country. She clearly belongs there too.
Welcome to the big leagues.
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Thank you for sharing the blog! I read through it last night - really enjoyed it!
