And since many judges, stewards, trainers, riders, etc do not know the different zone rules, there is some rule breaking that is allowed because no one cares enough to enforce it. This happens in Zone 10, especially at HITS Coachella, where riders come from many different zones. Even pointing it out to a steward and office staff makeys no difference.
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Just another thought - some A/Os will use the open divisions as a warm up for the Amateurs since the open classes generally go earlier in the week (or like at WIHS, earlier in the day).
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I have to chime in here. It’s not the judge’s responsibility to enforce the rules about exhibitors who cross enter. The judge’s job is to pin the results of the class that comes in the ring, not to determine who is eligible to be in the class.
Enforcing the rules about eligibility and everything else is absolutely the job of the steward.
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The first time I showed against this rider, I believe she was trying a horse, so that week of Thermal, she showed it and another of hers in the AAs. This was in CA, so she couldn’t cross into the AOs. I had some kind of weird hot streak and won all my classes that weekend. But I was just mesmerized by how well she rode and her level of showmanship. And friendliness.
I showed against her again when I moved my horse up to the low AOs and she mostly beat me with her accurate and quiet riding, but every so often, I had a better round. Never once did I feel like she was sandbagging or that it wasn’t fair. I felt lucky to get to ride at a high level and sometimes be competitive.
That is why you show at a place like WEF against riders who can be competitive in open divisions. To learn from the best and see where you stack up. If that is not of interest, don’t show at WEF. We actually have lots of these great amateurs. Look at Virginia Fout who can win Champion at indoor shows year in, year out even if she’s not on the easiest horse. We should be celebrating that skill, not crying foul of sportsmanship.
After I sold that horse, I had a much greener horse, so I was back in the 2’6 ring. I really hope folks didn’t think I was sandbagging that ring for a few shows bc Lord knows I was positively nursing my horse to get around safely 
I don’t think you’ll really enjoy the hunters if you can’t come at it with a more growth mindset rather than stressing about who’s showing up or down.
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Honestly, this is the best, most insightful commentary that I’ve read on this forum all year. Kudos to you for your excellent thinking - we should all be so wise and thoughtful! Your sentiment is the essence of our sport at its best. I so admire the generosity with which our best riders respect excellence as an incentive and an ambition. If our world was full of riders like @greysfordays than ours would be a kinder, more competitive, better place. You’re are so correct - on any given weekend, ANYONE can win. These are horses we’re talking about after all! There is NO guarantee that the best rider and best horses will win. I love your comment “every so often, I had a better round.” This is what gets us coming back for more. Sure - we may not win every week, but, every so often, we ride our tails off and our horses somehow magically put it all together and for that moment, we’re on top of the world. Again, I really admire your thinking here. Thank you for making me smile!
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OK. I’m officially confused.
@greysfordays Who are we talking about? I only know of one amateur who won the past few years in open divisions at indoors and derby finals and she definitely shows at WEF. This makes me think that I have the wrong person in mind. The one I’m thinking of shows at WEF, not Thermal. Are there THAT many amateurs beating pros at big shows? Because if that’s true, well, that’s kind of a pathetic statement about the quality of “professional” hunter riders.
You don’t think there could be at least one super competitive amateur on each coast? As noted above, they’re horses. Anyone can win on a given day. Within reason.
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@MHM No. I don’t think that there is more than one. But I don’t claim to know much about California. The OP made a specific point about WEF.
@greysfordays sounds like they know this rider from California. They can’t be the same.
I looked up results. There is only one amateur winning against professionals at indoors. If I’m wrong, tell me what I’m missing. Is it a WEF rider or a California rider?
@PlainJaneIAm I’m trying to have your back on a few points. There is a profound difference between winning a 3’6 performance class at some random Ocala show and winning a national qualifying show like Washington or Devon. Someone bopping around Ocala versus winning Devon is a night and day difference.
Someone else mentioned Tori. Tori went pro. She didn’t age into amateurs. There’s a part of me that sympathizes with the OP. If someone is always winning at a lower level, then maybe they should move up to a higher level.
That A/O that shows at WEF and has beaten the pros at Indoors in the open classes used to live in California. Lol
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I don’t think that was likely to happen. As I recall, she very rarely owned the animals she showed, other than maybe a pony or two early on.
I know that, but many judges are also trainers and stewards. Shows like HITS Coachella get east coast officials on many occasions and like Peggy noted in a previous post, they do not know Zone rules. This is why rules should be the same in all zones. I so miss the old AHSA. This whole USEF/USHJA debacle is just ridiculous.
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Why not just name this person showing in the low A/O and winning in the pro divisions. Show records are public records. Why all the secrecy?
IIRC she was a catch rider from the get go. Her family was not in a position to purchase all the 6 figure priced Ponies and horses she showed. Same as many trainer or employee children, can’t afford to own what they ride. No AO for them when they age out.
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If I remember correctly, Ballou was her own pony, but everything else was a catch ride.
Lindsay Maxwell, I assume.
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I’m not sure it’s really fair to publicly drag her into this when all she’s done is ride better than the OP.
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With all due respect, I think it’s “bad for business” (of showing and the USEF) to wag your finger at a competitor for having the “feeling” that one should want a system of fair play in her sport.
Just because that has not been accomplished (nor, perhaps, desired) by those calling the shots does not mean it’s an illegitimate demand to make of the sport. It does not make the OP nuts or wrong or even idiosyncratic to want a level playing field. In fact, it’s utterly irrational to stay in a game you cannot win because it’s rigged. So I don’t think the OP is wrong. And more to the point, this sport isn’t going to last if rational people are shown the door.
OP, what you are seeing is a piss-poor system of sorting out riders by skill (or experience or access to opportunity or, in the hunters, access to better and worse horse flesh). The baroque set of amateur rules were created out of people finding loopholes in the rules, as written.
IMO, it was also a result of two more less obvious and more disappointing factors:
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Money. Because everyone (read: trainers, especially those at the tippy-top) make money when the richest of their clients have a division they like, the only people complaining about the amateur rules are the individuals who can’t afford to, say, own a string of 6 of them and enjoy the opportunity to learn to ride as well as a pro. I will say, however, that there are many more of us than there are of the very few at the top. But any time anyone buys the hype that we ought to STFU because we want more fairness in the sport, well, that’s a step backwards against creating a better definition of “amateur” or some other system for having competition be “like against like.”
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Lack of regulation in the industry. If we, instead, required certification of professional horse trainers in the US, as in some European nations, the problem could be solved by other means. I can recall a few attempts to create such a certification in the US and they have failed. Again, the current and biggest trainers are doing just fine as they are, so their is little political will within the USEF to change it.
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What or who defines fair play?
presumably fair play means playing by the rules, not demanding the rules be changed to meet your desired results. Surely that’s more akin to sour grapes or simply envy, not fair play. With all due respect.
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How is that “dragging” anyone’s name into this? An ammy can show in the lows and if she’s out-riding the pros there, so what? I don’t see the shame in that.
I don’t think it’s impossible to define “fair.” Surely you can think of instances where rules exist, in whatever way they do, but are not considered “fair” by those subject to them. Google up philosopher John Rawls’ Theory of Justice for some discussion about the relationship between rules and justice. And, you have to admit, the USEF has not seem terribly invested in the plight of the average, working amateur when making its rules. So it’s neither a strong nor charitable argument to make to someone like the OP (or the vast majority of working ammies) to trot out a shitty set of rules and claim that all is right because those exist. If enough people think the rules amount to granting unfair advantage, can you really find some defect of character of theirs responsible?
So far, “shaming the victim” seems to be a favorite strategy of some of the folks on COTH. I don’t get it… especially since most of us are among those working ammies who could use some re-leveling of the playing field.
Also, please don’t be snarky toward me if you want to engage in discussion with me. I was being courteous as I pointed out a potential flaw in the way you dismissed the OP. It is not rude to disagree. If you want to tell me to F off, I’d rather you just do that in plain terms or don’t respond to what I write.
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