WEG Pratoni 2022

[OverandOnward]

@Equibrit

I was just looking at Mr Boyd’s FEI record. It’s not that impressive. He arrived in the USA in 2017 and has attempted a 5* six times and was eliminated in 2 of them. Is that caliber ?

Every 5* rider has hits and misses over the years.

To me one of the best things about eventing is that all riders have the whims of fate and readiness. It really is a more level playing field than many other sports.

[hopashore1]

He’s been in the US and competing at the 5* level a lot longer than 2017…I believe he started competing for the U.S. in 2010ish?

[wanderlust]

@Equibrit

I was just looking at Mr Boyd’s FEI record. It’s not that impressive. He arrived in the USA in 2017 and has attempted a 5* six times and was eliminated in 2 of them. Is that caliber ?

He’s been here since 2006.

Boyd Martin

[Sticky_Situation]

Without having his record in front of me, he’s also run at the 5* level far more than 6 times. Maybe he’s done it 6 times since it started being called 5*, since up until about 4 years ago those events were called 4*? But in that case even the top Brits and Germans will only have done a couple more 5*s than he has.

[AMWookey]

I stopped after I hit 22 and that was only on page 7 of his record.

[Texarkana]

@AMWookey

I stopped after I hit 22 and that was only on page 7 of his record.

Don’t kill yourself counting for the person who earlier insinuated Toledo de Kerser was an inexperienced 5 star horse put on the team for exposure.

[Equibrit]

I was only counting since the change.
David Doel has 13
Ollie Townend 18
Tim Price 25
Pippa Funnel 12
Bubby Upton (23 yo) 5
Izzy Taylor 8
Some of these guys are riding up to 4/5 horses at a single 5* event. It would suggest that Boyd Martin is under horsed.

[AMWookey]

Or geographies are completely different. That is apples to oranges. Not a single one of those you named are in the US. They have far more access to 5* then we do in NA. That will obviously change with Maryland, but even looking at all of that, he has made many trips overseas at a high cost one would assume.

[Marigold]

@Equibrit

Some of these guys are riding up to 4/5 horses at a single 5* event.

They are not. No 5* in the world permits that.

@Equibrit

It would suggest that Boyd Martin is under horsed.

Many British/European top riders have similar program sizes to Boyd. You’ve named some of the most prolific riders in the world at the moment, but just as some examples Boyd’s program is bigger than Ros’s program, bigger than any of the German programs (I do not count MJ’s show jumpers as part of his eventing program), and your new World Champion only has two at the level in total.

I’m no particular Boyd fan, and if you’d like to argue his quality is somewhat lacking I’d hear you out (although I think he’s been turning that around lately), but number of horses or 5* runs is not in any measurable way his issue.

[Blackeventer]

Couldn’t agree more.
Apples to oranges indeed.
Even continental European top notch riders having an “easier access” to 5* do not have the horse power and depth the GB riders have.
Including the Germans: MJ had Sam, no longer.
Now has Chipmunk as his only 5* horse.
Sandra has one with Viamant du Matz, Julia has one with Mandy.

I won’t even mention the other Europeans…

Overall, the eventing scene in GB, vs continental Europe and NA are different worlds, with GB in a whole other dimension altogether.

[OverandOnward]

@Blackeventer

Overall, the eventing scene in GB, vs continental Europe and NA are different worlds, with GB in a whole other dimension altogether.

This. And if the U.S. will upgrade the frequency of good 4*'s and 5*'s to what is reasonably available to GB riders, our elite eventers will be able to upgrade as well.

GB has what, 50+ riders going out of the start box in their 5*'s? The U.S. many fewer. And until very recently, only one 5* per year - if you miss that one for any reason, you have to go across the pond to pick up another one sooner than 12 months.

People do not truly excel on a consistent basis at something they don’t often do. That is just a given fact. There is no substitute for experience.

Now that NA has a second 5*, as more riders have a chance to compete at that level at least twice a year, that will help. We need to have a slate more like what is accessible to GB and European riders every year, as they can travel to multiple countries to compete.

It has helped enormously that U.S. riders have had more experience overseas in recent years. But being able to do it without crossing an ocean will have a much broader impact.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

Interesting post to read as we are discussing the small number of 5* entries over in the Fair Hill thread.

[OverandOnward]

@Groom_amp_Taxi

Interesting post to read as we are discussing the small number of 5* entries over in the Fair Hill thread.

It will take time for more U.S. riders to make 5* something they aim for regularly. We have a massive cultural shift to manage. This is sort of a ‘if you build it, they will come’ scenario. Of course there are so many factors at play, this is not Europe.

[Texarkana]

@OverandOnward

@Groom_amp_Taxi

Interesting post to read as we are discussing the small number of 5* entries over in the Fair Hill thread.

It will take time for more U.S. riders to make 5* something they aim for regularly. We have a massive cultural shift to manage. This is sort of a ‘if you build it, they will come’ scenario. Of course there are so many factors at play, this is not Europe.

How are we supposed to build it when we are losing so many venues that ran advanced? We’re fighting forces pulling opposite directions- the loss and consolidation of venues while we try to grow our top level competiton.

[FitToBeTied]

I was talking with my trainer who runs currently at 3 and 4* level. I told her that if she really has dreams to being one of the best in the world then she needs to move to the UK or EU. If you want to be the best you have to compete against the best on a regular basis.

[Willesdon]

Narrow that down to the UK. At an every-day sort of BE competition it is normal to have 15 or 20 nationalities running as so many riders base themselves here.

[Equibrit]

@Marigold

@Equibrit

Some of these guys are riding up to 4/5 horses at a single 5* event.

They are not. No 5* in the world permits that.

Sorry didn’t write that very well. What I meant was, since the change in 5* some of those riders have had 4/5 different horses that ran at one venue, like Luhmuhlen or whatever. So - riders have in their yards several horses, which over the last few years have experience at a large number of 5* events. Compared to 3 horses who ran at Rolex for Boyd Martin.

[Larksmom]

who else in the US has more than 3 horses at 5*?

[Texarkana]

@Larksmom

who else in the US has more than 3 horses at 5*?

Buck. That’s probably it at the moment. Our Pratoni team + a few others have 2-3 at any given time.

ETA— I realized I can probably list nearly everyone with 2 or more currently active 5* horses off the top of my head:

Will C., Lauren, Tami, Boyd, Phillip from the Pratoni team.

Then Buck, Doug, Liz, Hannah Sue, Jennie, Will F.

Who did I forget, not counting Canadians?

[OverandOnward]

@Larksmom

who else in the US has more than 3 horses at 5*?

Further to the point … why would anyone, owner or rider, maintain more than that when there are so few 5* opportunities to ride, and one can only ride two to three horses at each one? How do several horses under just one rider all get out and run more than one 5* in the U.S.?

There were a few years when Kentucky was our only 5* (4* then) each year when Phillip Dutton had 4-5 at the level, and had to pick which would run and which just didn’t do a 5* that year. (4* then of course)

In fact with a bit more 5* run opportunity within the U.S., it may make it even more challenging to schedule and prepare for some overseas 5*'s and some U.S. 5*'s for several horses under just one rider.