Weight in the stirrups?

[paulaedwina]

I am new to Western -less than a year after having ridden English since I was about 8. So I am learning all kinds of things all the time.

For Thanksgiving I went on trail ride in Michaux forest with friends. The footing can be quite rocky and I found myself intuitively standing in the stirrups while Fella scrambled over rocks and found his footing. I don’t mean standing in the stirrups like I’m picking peaches from horseback, I mean having much more weight in the stirrups and very light in the seat. It felt right to get off of Fella’s back. Now don’t get me wrong -this wasn’t two point. I wasn’t cocked forward -just…well, not quite hovering. The balance was perfect. I didn’t have to hold on or work at it. Suddenly it made sense to me that the fenders were slightly forward and that fenders were so big. Am I right?

To compound this I was watching an excellent (and winning) ride in Ranch Riding (Ranch Pleasure) by Shawn Hays riding “The Crowd Loves Me” and wouldn’t you know it, for his extended trot he stood in the stirrups. He leaned forward a bit and held the horn lightly, but this is making me wonder whether instead of posting my trot I should be putting more weight in the stirrups and hot-seating the fast trot.

Here is the video of Shawn Hays https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFCMY70aqaQ&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

Thoughts?
Paula

[Bluey]

I don’t know what they are judging there, so can’t help on that.

What that rider does there is what cowboys here, before they learned to post, used to do while riding to go places at the trot, that here they call “long trotting”.

Once they learn to post, it really is a better way to go with the horse for longer periods.

I don’t know if he does that there because it is required, as an old tradition type riding style, or because he learned to ride like that and just never changed over to posting.

For that short stretch, it is fine.
When riding outside, over many years, I have had many cowboys thank me when they learned to post correctly.

When trotting over long distances, I would say it is easier on your horse to carry a rider posting (correctly) than trying to balance in one spot while the horse is moving on.
Easier on the rider also.

As you say, there is a time where standing on the stirrups feels right, but I don’t think it beats posting for longer than a short stretch.
It sure would be the best way to just stand in the stirrups if you were trotting along a slow critter you wanted to rope, you would not post then.

Every cowboy I have seen long trotting keeps dropping back every so often, they don’t seem to keep it up like you would a balanced posting trot you can ride forever.

I wonder if in such a class, seeped in tradition, long trotting is required, you are not supposed to post the trot?

[goodhors]

I am with Bluey, posting over long distances is much easier on you and the horse. Ring riding, you might be able to balance standing for short times not holding yourself upright. Ground is level, dependable, horse isn’t going to trip or stumble like in fields.

Doesn’t hurt to learn how to do the standing for trot, but watch that bang on the horse’s back when you go to sit down again as your rump hits the seat. They can add up, make it hurt his back after standing in the stirrups.

Posting done right, lots of practice to develop strength, is lots easier on horse and you to cover distances. Western saddles are not made for standing in, though some let you do it easier than others. Puts a lot of load on horse shoulders with you on top of them for periods of time in the standing position.

[paulaedwina]

Good information, guys. The intuitive standing surprised me but it seemed to work for the environment. I will continue to post, but I’ve seen that standing trot in ranch pleasure too -so I’ll try it to see if it helps Fella open up.

That video was the winning ride at AQHA worlds in Ranch Riding. I love watching it. Shawn Hays uses some great horsemanship in his training of reiners (I watched him being interviewed on a show) and he’s a real joy to watch. Here’s the video if you’re interested. He speaks to my dressage background. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXtBwGzbhwc

Paula

[Aspen1]

Never seen anyone do that outside of an arena. Long trotting is just that - sitting or posting a trot for a LONG time. The only people I have seen stand and hang onto their horn when their horse trots is guys in a rodeo arena. Hanging onto the horn is a greenhorn move to us. Kids growing up on ranches often got their fingers whacked with a quirt for holding onto the horn. (Not a great way of raising your kids, but it tells you how hanging onto the horn was viewed on the ranch.) Not saying this guy isn’t a horseman. Just saying things sure have changed if this is now acceptable in a winning ride, especially in a class with “ranch” in the name.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Aspen1;8428886]
Never seen anyone do that outside of an arena. Long trotting is just that - sitting or posting a trot for a LONG time. The only people I have seen stand and hang onto their horn when their horse trots is guys in a rodeo arena. Hanging onto the horn is a greenhorn move to us. Kids growing up on ranches often got their fingers whacked with a quirt for holding onto the horn. (Not a great way of raising your kids, but it tells you how hanging onto the horn was viewed on the ranch.) Not saying this guy isn’t a horseman. Just saying things sure have changed if this is now acceptable in a winning ride, especially in a class with “ranch” in the name.[/QUOTE]

Remember, different regions have different cowboy traditions.
With a name like Aspen, are you perhaps in the Rocky Mountain region?
If so, which part of it?

Also, you may be from a different time than when I observed them standing up like that one fellow.
Things change over time, even traditions.

I have not heard of anyone hitting their kids for using the horn?

The reason they stood on the stirrups here, as they told me, is because they didn’t know to post and it was a way to make trotting faster more comfortable for both, horse and rider.

Once we taught local kids to post in 4H, they taught the parents that didn’t know and posting became more general.
I have helped in some NM/CO ranches and they too at times stood up when trotting down the pasture, so it is not just in our TX Panhandle area.

As for how the fellow rides in that class in general, I would not know what is being judged, maybe not the rider, so how he rides is not important?

Just finished watching the Reining Futurity and there only the horse is judged, you may ride sitting backwards and almost falling off and won’t matter, if the horse shows well.

Whatever is asked of the horse in that class in the video, that I also don’t know.
It seems a basic, beginner type class?

[beau159]

@paulaedwina;8427552

this is making me wonder whether instead of posting my trot I should be putting more weight in the stirrups and hot-seating the fast trot.

Common sense tells me it is going to be easier for me, as the rider, to post a fast trot. Rather than standing in my stirrups for a long length of time.

Growing up on horseback on a farm/ranch, I spent lots of time in the saddle doing various things. When we’d move cattle, most of it was walking. If the cattle tried trotting, one of us would go to the front and try to slow them down, because the small calves don’t fare well when the herd is moving too fast for them to keep up.

Checking miles of fenceline was easier to do at a fast trot. And personally, I can’t imagine “standing” in the stirrups the whole way. Much easier to trot. IMO

[Sparrowette]

(Bold mine)

[QUOTE=Bluey;8428969]
Remember, different regions have different cowboy traditions.
With a name like Aspen, are you perhaps in the Rocky Mountain region?
If so, which part of it?

Also, you may be from a different time than when I observed them standing up like that one fellow.
Things change over time, even traditions.

I have not heard of anyone hitting their kids for using the horn?[/QUOTE]

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere on CoTH, I first learned from the old, retired AZ cowboys who hung around the barn where I rode. These guys were horsemen who were in their prime around 1910-1930. I learned to post, but it was considered better if I could sit a trot. I remember being excited, feeling accomplished, the day I actually did it at a nice trot pace. I felt like my body was acting differently, absorbing the trot better.

As for grabbing the horn, I didn’t get whacked for it, but I sure got yelled at. Horn-grabbing was definitely BAD and considered proof of just being a dude.

The reason they stood on the stirrups here, as they told me, is because they didn’t know to post and it was a way to make trotting faster more comfortable for both, horse and rider.

Once we taught local kids to post in 4H, they taught the parents that didn’t know and posting became more general.
I have helped in some NM/CO ranches and they too at times stood up when trotting down the pasture, so it is not just in our TX Panhandle area. (…)

Maybe that was from the old-time attitude I saw, that to be able to sit the trot was better?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Sparrowette;8429216]
(Bold mine)

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere on CoTH, I first learned from the old, retired AZ cowboys who hung around the barn where I rode. These guys were horsemen who were in their prime around 1910-1930. I learned to post, but it was considered better if I could sit a trot. I remember being excited, feeling accomplished, the day I actually did it at a nice trot pace. I felt like my body was acting differently, absorbing the trot better.

As for grabbing the horn, I didn’t get whacked for it, but I sure got yelled at. Horn-grabbing was definitely BAD and considered proof of just being a dude.

Maybe that was from the old-time attitude I saw, that to be able to sit the trot was better?[/QUOTE]

Could be, I may have misunderstood cause and effect there.

The reality is that, in that video, there is supposedly a cowboy (?) doing just that we are discussing, standing up and holding onto the horn while trotting in that class.
That came from somewhere …

[goodhors]

Sitting the trot for long distances is not similar to standing during a trot, while doing ranch work.

And the differences in gaits on the old style QH bred animals makes a huge difference in comfort for the rider using one in his daily work. I know quite a few were rougher than riding a 3-wheeled lumber wagon!! Just horrible gaits trotting. There is a REASON so many Western horses are so often used with the slow canter. No human can sit their trot, standing the trot was to save yourself getting beat in the saddle before posting was introduced ‘out West’.

Mid 1960s, show ring Western classes were shown with slow trots, soft canters almost in place, but doing true gaits, unlike now. The gaits got more ‘natural, free moving’ with heavy TB breeding influences that made some QH, Western bred animals more comfortable to sit at both trot and canter. Ranch folks doing distances were still doing standing trot to cover miles, posting had not spread that far yet.

People had to do whatever it took to survive a day in the saddle to earn their daily wage. If it meant standing, then that is what they did, turned into a tradition.

[paulaedwina]

I’m learning more things. I’m wondering if I’ve ever seen anyone on Bonanza or The Rifleman ever posted their trot.

Paula

[thatmoody]

When we used to condition young horses, we did long trot quite a bit, but I don’t remember doing it much actually working cows. You were either hauling butt to get in front of them to slow them down, or walking behind them. We had dogs that did MOST of the work, but you had to be present to direct them somewhat.

Conditioning barrel horses we always long-trotted them, and posted, even with relatively long stirrups. I cannot IMAGINE how raw my tush would be trying to sit a real trot for any length of time (now that I ride dressage it’s not so much of an issue- those old western roping saddles were VERY hard).

We also used to wear pantyhose under our jeans while we worked cows (even the guys) because your legs would get so raw…this was Florida in the heat, too, so you needed the jeans to SLIDE rather than tug ;).

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Aspen1;8428886]
Never seen anyone do that outside of an arena. Long trotting is just that - sitting or posting a trot for a LONG time. The only people I have seen stand and hang onto their horn when their horse trots is guys in a rodeo arena. Hanging onto the horn is a greenhorn move to us. Kids growing up on ranches often got their fingers whacked with a quirt for holding onto the horn. (Not a great way of raising your kids, but it tells you how hanging onto the horn was viewed on the ranch.) Not saying this guy isn’t a horseman. Just saying things sure have changed if this is now acceptable in a winning ride, especially in a class with “ranch” in the name.[/QUOTE]

To say that you should never put a hand on the horn is just as wrong as saying that you should always put a hand on the horn. Holding the horn or resting your hand on the horn is something that is situationally appropriate - there are times when it is and times when it isn’t.

And, one thing that is clear to me, having lived in many different places, is that regional norms are often different. Just because you live in an area where “everybody” did something in a particular way doesn’t mean that this is a universal truth.

Also, times change. What “everybody” did back in the Dark Ages when I was a child isn’t necessarily what “everybody” does today. Sometimes that’s a good thing, sometimes it’s a bad thing, and sometimes it doesn’t much matter.

If standing during the extended trot and resting your hand on the horn is what feels most comfortable to you, then there’s no reason that you shouldn’t do it. It’s neither inherently good nor inherently bad.

And in response to the OP, I think using a sort of Western riding version of the English half-seat makes perfect sense in some situations. I almost always find myself doing this when riding over rough terrain or stepping over logs/obstacles on the trail because it just feels right to me.

[cowboymom]

Here in Montana, cow country, it’s traditionally same as Aspen though I don’t know that kids would get whacked for grabbing the horn but teased, yes.

We don’t use the term cowboy here, that is a dudey term. That guy in the video has a hat and is playing with cows but that doesn’t make him someone that works cows with a horse all day on any given day.

I will see a long trot, usually as a bit of a break or maybe stand for a moment to stretch, but usually it’s sitting the trot only. I’m just now starting to see some very slight posting some places. But mostly, it’s old school. No hands on the horn, and at least part of the reason for that is to keep your hand and reins/rope out of there. Grabbing horn during a buck or a spook might keep you aboard but you’ll catch some flak for it. I don’t think I’ve EVER grabbed the horn, it’s just not in my bag of tricks at all, I’ve dropped my forearm against the pommel to brace against a big spook but never grabbed the horn. The teasing is all in good fun but there is an element of “toughen up Buttercup” in the teasing. Traditionally, anyway, and there are still a lot of people here that are not that long past the old days.

Paula, whatever keeps you solidly balanced and still while he works out the tricky spots is the thing to do. :yes: Standing way up in the stirrups, of course not good, but sitting fully on his back and behind the action isn’t good either. I’m glad you’re getting out on him and having fun.

[paulaedwina]

Thanks guys!

I am very happy with how far Fella and I have come and how we’ve developed too. And that guy, Shawn Hays pushes cattle and is a reiner trainer of high repute.

The difference between what Shawn did and what I did on the trail was that I did not lean forward -didn’t feel the need to, it felt quite stable just to hover a bit over the seat so Fella could be a cat without interference, and I did not hold the horn. I have held the horn on occasion however, and have no problem doing so. For example, on our conditioning rides the first hill is a doozy and Fella fairly leaps up it. I hold on to the horn. When I was getting used to his forward I held on to the horn. Heck it’s there, so why not use it? When we’re cantering up the sloped corn field and along the top I have my split reins in one hand and my quirt in the other, so there’s no holding on then! :lol:

I think on the next ride I will try the long trot with more weight in the stirrups and see whether it makes a difference.

Paula

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;8433617]
Thanks guys!

I am very happy with how far Fella and I have come and how we’ve developed too. And that guy, Shawn Hays pushes cattle and is a reiner trainer of high repute.

The difference between what Shawn did and what I did on the trail was that I did not lean forward -didn’t feel the need to, it felt quite stable just to hover a bit over the seat so Fella could be a cat without interference, and I did not hold the horn. I have held the horn on occasion however, and have no problem doing so. For example, on our conditioning rides the first hill is a doozy and Fella fairly leaps up it. I hold on to the horn. When I was getting used to his forward I held on to the horn. Heck it’s there, so why not use it? When we’re cantering up the sloped corn field and along the top I have my split reins in one hand and my quirt in the other, so there’s no holding on then! :lol:

I think on the next ride I will try the long trot with more weight in the stirrups and see whether it makes a difference.

Paula[/QUOTE]

I don’t know who that fellow is, but he doesn’t seem to ride like a reiner or his horse balance and move like a reiner would have a horse move.
Are you sure that is what he is, or maybe he shows in working cowhorse, not reining?

I was watching some videos of some ranch remudas and here and there there was someone also trotting around standing up and holding onto the horn for a bit, like I see some do once in a while.
When they sit the trot, they generally tend to have the free hand moving along.
It is a very specific way cowboys in our area ride and I don’t think they know they do that.
Remember, they are working cattle, they are not trainers riding a horse to precise, technical performances in front of a judge or for who does it fastest.
The riding can look rough at times, but they and their horses get the job done
I don’t know in other regions, they probably have their own ways.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;8433617]
Thanks guys!

I am very happy with how far Fella and I have come and how we’ve developed too. And that guy, Shawn Hays pushes cattle and is a reiner trainer of high repute.

The difference between what Shawn did and what I did on the trail was that I did not lean forward -didn’t feel the need to, it felt quite stable just to hover a bit over the seat so Fella could be a cat without interference, and I did not hold the horn. I have held the horn on occasion however, and have no problem doing so. For example, on our conditioning rides the first hill is a doozy and Fella fairly leaps up it. I hold on to the horn. When I was getting used to his forward I held on to the horn. Heck it’s there, so why not use it? When we’re cantering up the sloped corn field and along the top I have my split reins in one hand and my quirt in the other, so there’s no holding on then! :lol:

I think on the next ride I will try the long trot with more weight in the stirrups and see whether it makes a difference.

Paula[/QUOTE]

I don’t know who that fellow is, but he doesn’t seem to ride like a reiner or his horse balance and move like a reiner would have a horse move.
Are you sure that is what he is, or maybe he shows in working cowhorse, not reining?

I was watching some videos of some ranch remudas and here and there there was someone also trotting around standing up and holding onto the horn for a bit, like I see some do once in a while.
When they sit the trot, they generally tend to have the free hand moving along.
It is a very specific way cowboys in our area ride and I don’t think they know they do that.
Remember, they are working cattle, they are not trainers riding a horse to precise, technical performances in front of a judge or for who does it fastest.
The riding can look rough at times, but they and their horses get the job done
I don’t know in other regions, they probably have their own ways.

Ok, I found him, he is more of a working cowhorse man, they ride a bit different than reiners do:

https://www.facebook.com/haysranch/

Working cowhorse demands other from the horses than pure reining does, although it does has a dry class based on reining.
Some horses and riders do both well, some are more specialists, a bit like an eventer can do a very correct dressage test, but a top dressage horse will tend to move and train and perform on a different level.

Then, when someone gets to the top in any event, as he is, they are just plain good.

[spotnnotfarm]

I actually show in AQHA Ranch Horse and the standing in the stirrups is a fad brought about by Mozaun Mckibben. It was developed to give your horse a clear cue in the show ring as to when to extend the trot. I used to do this but, it looks weird and can put weight on your horses shoulders. I know post and my horse has really been extending wonderfully. There is no rule in the show ring as to posting, sitting or standing. The main goal is to extend the gaits. Shawn Hays is a reined cow horse guy. The judges who really know ranch horses, will place the cow horses pretty high. The horse is an accomplished reined cow horse as well.

As far as trail riding, I would stand when going up a big hill or steep incline.

Here is my ride at Novice Champs this year, we were reserve champs
https://youtu.be/snXp6z7vAPw

[paulaedwina]

[QUOTE=spotnnotfarm;8435111]
I actually show in AQHA Ranch Horse and the standing in the stirrups is a fad brought about by Mozaun Mckibben. It was developed to give your horse a clear cue in the show ring as to when to extend the trot. I used to do this but, it looks weird and can put weight on your horses shoulders. I know post and my horse has really been extending wonderfully. There is no rule in the show ring as to posting, sitting or standing. The main goal is to extend the gaits. Shawn Hays is a reined cow horse guy. The judges who really know ranch horses, will place the cow horses pretty high. The horse is an accomplished reined cow horse as well.

As far as trail riding, I would stand when going up a big hill or steep incline.

Here is my ride at Novice Champs this year, we were reserve champs
https://youtu.be/snXp6z7vAPw[/QUOTE]

First of all -damn that’s a gorgeous horse! And I love seeing horses use their bodies without all the artifice (like the WP low headset thing. And s/he is in such awesome shape! What do you do to keep him/er so fit? Do you have a winter routine as well?

While we don’t ride the same way -I am coming from a dressage/English discipline -I completely appreciate your mad skills. I am learning to discover Fella’s Western buttons (I say discover because often I find he’s had the button and I had to learn how to ask). Gosh would you mind if I pmed you to bend your ear about your skills every now and then please?

ETA: Do you know there’s a Facebook page called AQHA Ranch Riding?

Paula

[spotnnotfarm]

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;8435199]
First of all -damn that’s a gorgeous horse! And I love seeing horses use their bodies without all the artifice (like the WP low headset thing. And s/he is in such awesome shape! What do you do to keep him/er so fit? Do you have a winter routine as well?

While we don’t ride the same way -I am coming from a dressage/English discipline -I completely appreciate your mad skills. I am learning to discover Fella’s Western buttons (I say discover because often I find he’s had the button and I had to learn how to ask). Gosh would you mind if I pmed you to bend your ear about your skills every now and then please?

ETA: Do you know there’s a Facebook page called AQHA Ranch Riding?

Paula[/QUOTE]

Thank you! I am very proud of him I loved him for 3 years and then when he came up for sale, I worked three jobs to buy him. I ride him almost everyday and do a ton of transition work. I also incorporate a lot of pole work. I do some basic dressage like shoulders in, haunches in and two track (similar to half pass) to warm him up. He has been there and done that so I try not to school him but just work on keeping him supple and soft.

We also work cows and go every other week to a reining trainer . He is naturally stiff to the left and likes to fall in on the left side so I really work to keep that side supple.

I let him down a bit in the winter but I do live in the south so we still ride a good bit. I am a member of the Ranch FB page and often post on it. Feel free to PM me anytime! It is a fun class and really shows how broke your horse is!