Weight limits and height

[luvmyhackney]

@FjordBCRF

We have a high ropes course nearby and everyone steps on the scale EVERY time they show up to climb. It doesn’t have the actual weight, they rigged it so it just shows colors, green if you’re under, and it turns to red if you’re over, so there are no numbers.

Thats an idea, not sure how this could be done with horses, but an excellent idea.

[FjordBCRF]

I thought so too! A good meet in the middle type of thing.

[KBC]

I love the idea of the traffic light scale, green good to go, amber, we might restrict who you ride or what you do, red, no go.

But then the stables above would have to have two scales, one for tall people, one for sort.

[KBC]

@McGurk

And while I think the language in that IHSA statement is awful; if the horse owner tells you their weight limit is 225, you look much heavier, the horse owner has you step on the scale and you’re 260 (clearly not a calibration, heavy clothing or weight variation issue), then I understand not offering a refund.

I say all of this as an overweight rider who wouldn’t be able to ride at some places with a weight limit.

I agree 100%, but my overactive mind goes “but where is the cut off?l

225 is the limit, you weigh 260, yup sorry, that sounds like a no refund situation.

225 and you weigh in at 230? Then what, let them ride, give refund?, no refund. I dint think any answer is right or wrong, but there has to be a policy. I would be pretty upset if I was turned away over 5 pounds, but if you dint stick to a rule, where do you stop.

AND I’m still debating over the different weights for different people thoughts….weight is weight, unless it isn’t.

[FjordBCRF]

@KBC

AND I’m still debating over the different weights for different people thoughts….weight is weight, unless it isn’t.

If you think of it in terms of BMI which accounts for weight and height, which I think we collectively agree isn’t a perfect measure either, you see many athletes getting higher BMI due to their muscle mass. In terms of BMI, they are then considered overweight/obese.

While weight IS weight, if you have a 220 pound athlete vs a 220 pound couch potato even at the same height, those could translate very differently to a horse.

I think OPs example is one where they are trying to be as inclusive as possible, but it’s a hard line to walk.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Whenever I was introducing myself in an email to a new riding instructor, I’d always note tactfully that I am 5’1 and very petite, mainly because I feared that if a teacher was accepting me for an intro lesson “sight unseen” and was afraid to ask about my size, she’d put me on her largest horse, erring on the side (understandably) of worrying that she’d give a bigger student too small a horse to carry them. I’d much prefer to ride a large pony than even the kindest 17.2 draft cross!

I think this has always been a touchy conversation, and part of the problem is that in the past some riding instructors have wanted students to be at unrealistically low weights. Also, trainers weren’t always great at estimating people’s weight from the ground–I remember when I was admittedly at one of my heaviest adult weights (115 lbs., though, about 10 pounds heavier than I am now) I was told by an older trainer I needed a horse at least 16.2 to carry someone of my size.

Now, outside the riding world, there are people who will get upset about any conversation about weight and size, no matter how health-related as “body shaming.” I think also, sadly, people tend to be less athletic and have less bodily awareness than in past eras, which can make things more difficult for horses.

As the population gets more and more overweight, lesson barns, are dying, and there is less access to horses, this will make entry points to riding even less accessible than before. But I agree with everyone that horse welfare must come first.

[RedHorses]

@KBC

**> We reserve the right to weigh days where we weigh every rider privately in a calm, kind and non judgemental manner: it’s easy to be unaware of weight gain. This is not intended to belittle or ‘fat shame’ far from it, it is, however, for our horses and clients welfare. **
> If you are over our limits I am sorry but your experience will be curtailed, no refund, you have not been truthful.

When I look at the quote in its entirety, this line about truthfulness appears to apply to regular clients. As in they have periodic “weigh days” to verify that riders are still meeting the weight limits that were made aware of when they starting riding regularly at this stable. This (quite reasonably) puts the expectation on the rider to monitor their own weight, and step back if they get too heavy. By showing up and riding they are effectively saying they’re still within the weight limits.

[McGurk]

I’m also going to add that as a larger rider, I am absolutely frank about my weight, size and riding ability. I want to preempt the difficult discussion. When I started riding about one barn (my now dear friend’s hunt livery) I said I am x height and y weight, do you have a horse sturdy enough to carry me? I am an experienced rider, but I haven’t been riding much recently, so am out of shape. I was immediately reassured that she had several draft cross, men’s heavy hunter type horses and it would be no trouble.

At a barn I was working at as an instructor, a student requested that I take her and a favorite relative on a trail ride as a treat (a real trail ride, not a walk single file one) and the BO said awkwardly “I’ll have to get back to you about scheduling, when I’m sure we have a horse available for you.” My answer? “Of course! I’m a large rider, and you only have 2, maybe 3 horses up to my weight. Just let me know when one is available.”

Along with my actual height and weight, here’s what I put on rider proficiency form for a riding vacation: “I have owned horses most of my adult life, and in my twenties and thirties was a serious competitive horseperson. But now I am old, overweight and not terribly fit. Currently I trail ride and fox hunt. I prefer a forward moving horse, not a deadhead, but not something hot either.”

So I don’t have a lot of sympathy people who can’t be honest about their weigh or their riding ability.

Maybe because of my experience, I have a better understanding of how rider’s weight affects our equine partners. But shouldn’t people who compete at IHSA understand it as well?

[Moss]

I have a lot of thoughts about this topic because I’ve always been adamant (with myself) about staying within a certain weight range and riding ability. And I want to emphasize riding ability since, as FjordBCRF mentioned, there is a difference between a 220 lb athlete meaning muscle versus 220 lb couch potato or someone who doesn’t have the skill, strength, or ability to ride.

So, I have two thoughts about OP’s post. The first is that the initial post appears to be about a trail riding facility. I rode over seas where the facility not only weighed us, but asked very detailed questions about our riding background. Many of the questions only an equestrian could answer, and I think that trail riding facilities should function in this way insomuch that they can measure a rider’s physical ability and skill: are they going to let the rider just putz down a short trail or can this person potentially do a bit more? Which horse is the person capable of riding?
With that, each trail facility should potentially teach the rider basic commands like stop, go, and turn. I went on a trail ride many years ago where the facility did this for about ten minutes, and it helped the individuals get used to the horses and teach safety. It can also expose rider limitations.

My second point is one that is very close to my heart. One of my relatives has an eating disorder and is well over 300 lbs; she is closer to 400 lbs. She bought a horse and insists on riding the horse. Sigh. It’s been an ordeal, and it’s very clear that the horse is uncomfortable and can’t carry her weight. Recently, she has been persistent that she wants to ride my horse. I’m very clear that she can’t and it hurts my relative’s feelings. I don’t want to hurt her feelings and I don’t want to make her cry, but it’s a situation I don’t really know how to address without talking about the touchy subject of weight.
There are definite pros to the body positive movement, but this movement has also given people, like my relative, ammunition to essentially harm themselves and others around them, such as animals. I hate talking about my relative because I love her and none of us know what to do. She has to help herself because we’re all at a loss. There are times where her horse has almost collapsed underneath her. And when it’s at that point, weight and skill don’t matter because it’s about the welfare of the animal.

[Scribbler]

I stumbled across the fat acceptance body positive movement through YouTube videos of people debunking what they say.

There are some very toxic and delusional aspects to the whole fat acceptance thing. They tend to want both to be accepted as normal with no restrictions but also have accommodations as needed. They are extremely touchy about being “judged” by normal weight people even as they express their confidence in their own beauty.

It’s pretty clear that they all have food addictions, binge eating disorder, or similar. And because they can’t or won’t moderate their behavior they get progressively heavier.

I don’t know what I would do if I had a person like that in my personal orbit. Obviously they would not be getting on my horse. Further than that, I don’t know how you get through to someone who basically has a food addiction. People will do and say anything to hide or excuse an addiction.

I knew someone, a friend’s husband, who I privately thought had an undisclosed addiction or tolerance to prescription opioids for back pain. Listening to what my friend said, he managed to torpedo any constructive action to help his pain such as massage or exercise. I think it was his brain refusing anything that might reduce the dosage, I expect he’d have some level of withdrawal. It was starting to impact his professional life, and he died rather young.

Anyhow food addiction is more emotional in that it’s eating for comfort, finding happiness in food, some people might get more pleasure from food. I was out for dinner with a long time friend who beat a flirtation with heroin in her 20s and subsequently put on almost 100 pounds. She ordered desert saying “because it will make me happy” which is an innocuous statement but made me think about how we react differently to sugar. I can’t ever say that as an adult I thought of sugar as something that would change my mood.

So I haven’t had that much exposure to either addicts in general or the truly obese. But I think it’s that more or less addictive aspect of binge eating or mindless eating etc that makes the fat activists so defensive and so adamant about not moderating their intake.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

There’s actually a very popular podcast called Maintenance Phase I stumbled upon and while it made some good points about debunking the diet industry, I got very annoyed by it and stopped listening because one of the hosts basically has that POV–she insists that all links between health and weight are purely because of socioeconomic reasons, and even in some of her most extreme monologues implied that people who lose weight or individuals who try to help people lose weight are traitors/ableist. (Although she’d always backpedal saying people can do what they want, she just wants to be left alone.) Maintaining a normal weight in our modern environment is SO HARD, yes, but that doesn’t mean it’s not worthwhile, for the health benefits and being able to enjoy the activities you love.

The parallel with drugs is interesting–I think one thing, with the Internet, is that people can find support for almost any unhealthy habit if they post in the right forums. So while someone who really should be weaned off a prescription painkiller for minor back pain might think twice when a doctor points out that studies show exercise is often more effective for that complaint, online there are people who will tell them the doctor is just gaslighting them. And there is some truth that yes, some people will need painkillers for the rest of their life with very serious conditions, that doesn’t mean that everyone on them should be.

I guess my POV is that there is certainly a wider range of healthy than what fashion and the media tells us, but there are a very limited number of people who can be healthy at the ultimate edges of those extremes. The number of adults who can truly be healthy and live a normal life at 75lbs. or 375lbs. are probably pretty few in number.

rant over

[McGurk]

Ehhhhh, now you’re going to make me play devil’s advocate.

I think there’s a lot of good to come out of the body positivity/beauty at any size movement. I agree, some of the stuff is over the top; but rejecting unrealistic beauty norms, celebrating fitness over thinness and calling out baseless body shaming are all things that I can support.

Over the top? The social media influencer who booked an event at a trail riding facility, knowing she was absolutely over their weight limit, caused a scene when she wasn’t able to ride, and then trashed the business online.

Overlooked in all of this is that we have an athletic partner with no voice. I have seen horses buckle at the knees when an overweight, unbalanced rider mounted, I have seen horses invert and shorten their stride when carrying an overweight rider and I have seen really unfit riders of all weights be unbalanced and hard to carry.

I have also seen overweight riders body shamed and told they were too big when riding horses that are perfectly suitable for them and the horses were showing absolutely no signs of distress. Because someone felt they “looked” too big.

In one case we had a vet and multiple horse people look at the horse and rider in question and conclude no, the horse’s back wasn’t sore, yes, the horse was sound and yes, the horse was cheerfully forward. The rider was overweight, but an experienced, balanced and tactful rider and the horse was a big, big-boned, substantial 16.2 TB. But the critic was sure the horse was uncomfortable. With no evidence. Because the rider didn’t look like what the critic thought she should look like.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

100%, I totally agree–I want to make it clear I wasn’t saying we need to go back to the days where literally any woman who wasn’t 5’6 and 105lbs. was shamed as too heavy to ride! I remember in the book A Very Young Rider how the title character’s older sister was passing out in school, dieting to be thin enough to ride, and this was just shrugged off by her younger sister as something she would have to do when she got older.

[quietann]

Yeah, I would say that a lot of my not falling off is because I’m wide-hipped and thunder-thighed.

[clipclop12]

The body positivity movement did pendulum back the other way a bit too much IMHO. Yes - the insanely skinny models of the 90s isn’t it. But obese also isn’t it. You can be fit and healthy without being “skinny.” You can be skinny without being fit and healthy. The fit and healthy part is what we should focus on and not necessarily what shape that looks like.

Regarding this company’s statement, my guess is they had a lot of customers show up and were obviously over the weight limit. This caused problems from minor (it’s awkward to tell someone they can’t participate) to larger issues (customer screaming at them). I’ve worked in very customer facing jobs and you can soooooooo clearly lay out a very normal policy but customers will still go into “Karen” mode (even though the customer is completely in the wrong). The company probably could have worded it a bit better but I’m guessing the gist they were trying to get across is please don’t book with us if you are obviously over the weight limit.

A thought on “no refunds.” Depending on their scheduling set up of this business, if customers routinely show up that are over the weight limit, those spots could have gone to a client that was under the limit. The business then loses (significant) revenue if they refund a bunch of customer every day without an ability to fill those spots. Especially if they have a limited capacity each day and that capacity could have gone to riders under the limit. Similar to what I was saying above, it could also be a scare tactic to make sure people are weighing themselves before arriving. It’s probably a lot of work to schedule these rides, get wranglers/instructors set up, get horses tacked up, etc…to then have to refund customers all the time probably hurts the business quite a bit.

[trubandloki]

I have no issue with barns having a weight limit or weighing.
I, like the OP, do not get the part that says, basically, we get that you might not know how much you weigh so we will weigh you, but then we will assume you were lying when you said you did not realize how much you weighed.

@McGurk

And while I think the language in that IHSA statement is awful;

@McGurk

But shouldn’t people who compete at IHSA understand it as well?

I think you are getting your threads confused. This thread is not about IHSA specifically.

From the original post it seems like it is about a trail string or a lesson barn.

[McGurk]

@trubandloki,

My bad. I was confused by the first line of the thread, where the poster referenced another thread about IHSA.

Reading comprehension fail.

Makes much more sense that the statement is from a trail ride business or lesson barn.

So your average customer of those businesses probably doesn’t understand how weight and balance affects our equine partners.

I stand by my original assessment though - it’s worded badly and is terrible customer service, but I am sympathetic, because …people lie.

[Kirikou]

@FjordBCRF

It doesn’t have the actual weight, they rigged it so it just shows colors, green if you’re under, and it turns to red if you’re over, so there are no numbers.

This is great! I need to get one of those!

[mmeqcenter]

I too am confused on the correlation of a lower weight per height. It seems the BMI correlation someone pointed out is probably what’s going on. I hate BMI. We all know now that it is racist and sexist and does not actually account for health at all. All bodies are different, and people carry weight differently. ALSO, muscle weighs more than fat by volume. One person’s 5’8" and 200 pounds could be big muscular thighs and booty, and another’s 5’8" and 200 pounds could be mostly belly. And a 6’ tall person on a 14.3hh horse has its own balance concern outside of weight. Would a 6’ tall 160 pound person really be “better” than a 5’4’’ 190 pound person? I don’t think it’s that simple.

The “if you’re over the weight limit you lied” thing is wild. A person’s weight can fluctuate five pounds depending on time of day, even as much as 10 pounds if someone is on certain medications or something.
Also, weighing everyone is crazy. Thin or large, not everyone is okay with just anyone knowing their weight. And how do we know your scale is correctly calibrated? SMH

I’m all for weight limits, isn’t max 20% of the horse’s weight the golden rule? That’s what I try to implement with mine, and why I buy larger horses. I’m not small, and that’s okay. But they should make sense and be reasonable.

I once naively let a BO use my 17hh thoroughbred gelding for their lesson program for a board discount. I came out one day to a girl on him who was probably around 350 pounds. Even though they had a draft cross in their lesson program they could have used, somehow they decided my 17hh narrow thoroughbred (around 1300 lbs) was fine. She wasn’t a beginner, but not advanced. When he tripped and fell to his knees just normal trotting, I told them he had a weight limit of 250 pounds going forward. (Which they didn’t adhere to. Nor did they adhere to their stated three lessons per week; I eventually found out they were using him 6-7 times per weeks because he was perfection. For a multitude of reasons, I left that barn.)

[tabula_rashah]

I’m not a tiny rider but I am a very fit rider and I’m quite conscious of my weight and how it effects the horses I ride. With my personal horses, I am comfortable with who/ what I can put on them. When I’m asked to ride someone else’s horses, I tell them what I weigh and ask them if they are okay with it. I’ve never had someone say no, but then again, I’m not getting on their horse because it’s been being an angel lol

As far as a public stable that offers rides, I think they would do better to weigh everyone or no one. And the no refunds is crap. That just sounds like what you are actually concerned about is body shaming and money, not the welfare of your horses