And yet the horse is sensitive to palpation of his back. He’s carrying his tail crooked, his hind legs are dragging, and he’s cross cantering and swapping leads. And bucking.
Those are not the actions of a sound horse.
The saddle can fit and the horse still be in severe pain from a condition like kissing spines.
[QUOTE=nhwr;6886187]
There are 3 possible responses to an animals behavior;
A)It is always OK
B)It is sometimes OK
C)It is never OK
A and C are easy to handle.
With B, you are at the mercy of the animal’s judgement.
That is not usually a desirable place to be.[/QUOTE]
That is one opinion and no animal has died from it. But I prefer the approach that the behavior may be telling me something important and before I shut it down I need to pay attention to the thing that it may be telling me. This, of course, is merely another opinion.
Paula
A year ago or now? Does the vet know his history? Vets aren’t Gods you know.
Ok then so all those problems screaming “pain!!!” just a year ago were diagnosed as nothing by a vet? And now that the horse is having problems again, there is a “vet” that gives him a clean bill of health…errrr…again?
Allrighty then. Either the horse, despite all symptoms for over a year pointing towards the opposite, feels absolutely fantastic and the bucking is due to behavior.
Or perhaps a true vet check is in order with a more competent vet.
Nhwr, just curious. Did you go back and read the OP’s previous thread about this horse? And you’re secure in your post that a vet has cleared this horse as ok? Really? Those were some pretty alarming symptoms pointing to something that surely a competent vet would have found. And now here it is, almost a year later, same symptoms, OP asking or help.
I looked at the OP’s post from last year, and commented. The signs she listed are classic for needing the chiropractor; specifically, for being out in the sacrum and/or lumbar area. Carrying the tail to the side, being unable and/or unwilling to pick up a particular lead, stiffness that direction—absolutely classic. She also lists toe dragging in that previous post, which can also go with this chiropractic situation, or be a sign of something else.
Essentially, however, those symptoms do not have to be a sign of anything horrific or career ending—just painful, treatable, and over time, easily managed. Just like in people.
Libera
Working Hunter
… Had the vet check him out to rule out any physical issues. Saddle fits, no problems in the bridle otherwise…
[/I]
Sure sleuth away.
But when a horse bucks, as far as training goes-you can correct it or ignore it. I am not saying my horses never buck. When they do, they are corrected.[/INDENT]
Wow… lots of assumptions 
He was started in his 4yo year, rode him that whole year until about November. Then worked him on the lungeline. Started riding him again this year in July or so. Horse has been under saddle for 18 months total. He is in great shape and the work is easy for him. Really…2nd level is not rocket science 
Then… yes he had some young horse problems, vet came out last year and horse was thoroughly examined, everything was checked out and he is healthy. And really, none of these problems exist today… So not so sure how that is relevant now.
The buck, is one buck. Only when I pick up the reins the very first time. If a horse is in horrible pain I would expect other behavior…like, oh, a whole bunch of bucks? Sour attitude? Inability to collect?
Besides, the vet and the chiro have been out, as well as the saddle fitter and the farrier. This is not a horse in “horrible pain”. A horse in pain would do it on a trailride too, he doesn’t.
Mostly the buck just annoys me, it’s not exactly scary But I would like him to not do it, just in case someone else ever rides him, or if I would ever have to sell him or whatever.
I always stretch the frontlegs, he has never fallen down yet
I did wonder if it could be connected to the girth somehow though… I have a very simple Wintec straight “plastic” girth… maybe I should try a different one?
I have never ridden him bareback, but I will try that too. Will try without the bridle also. And riding him on contact from the start
Hope I answered all the questions!
Sorry for all the assumptions, but you know it’s the internet and we only have a little bit of information, and have never actually seen your horse. For my particular speculation I said fit and you might have goosed him. Goosing, to my mind, is not pain per say, but may say something about a thing as mild as saddle fit.
It’s good you describe the buck because I still think it’s a goosed buck and like I said, I’d see if the same thing happened without the saddle to determine if it had anything to do with the saddle, but that’s just me. Naturally it wouldn’t have to be the entire ride since the behavior happens really early -so I’d do exactly the same thing and walk him for warm up and then pick up the reins for a trot. But I’m type A/obsessive so that’s how I roll :lol:
Paula
[QUOTE=Libera;6886424]
The buck, is one buck. Only when I pick up the reins the very first time. If a horse is in horrible pain I would expect other behavior…like, oh, a whole bunch of bucks? Sour attitude? Inability to collect? [/QUOTE]
No. It depends on the horse, what is hurting, and how he decides to react. A horse can be compromised and in pain, and still perform. He’s just miserable and in pain, and might do something like give a buck as a half hearted objection. Horses with active Lyme disease can still perform, horses with kissing spines can still perform… horses with all kinds of problems still perform. Just not very well.
Get the vet out and have a complete and thorough lameness exam performed; including radiographs. Don’t assume that the problem you have is simply behavioral. You already know the horse was in pain before, you already know he was sore on palpation, dragging hind toes, swapping leads. Chances are he is still sore.
So you can either argue, or you can just call the vet out and either identify the problem or completely eliminate pain/injury as a cause. This is horsemanship 101. Very basic horsemanship. It is amazing to me that people will spend more money on a girth than they will on veterinary care. You horse does not need a new girth or saddle pad.
He needs to see a vet.
I too would be concerned that, having been started at 4, then a year off, he’d already be schooling 2nd level at age 5 1/2.
Even the 5 year old may seem physically capable, but mentally …not really. His bucking may be his way of validating that. Or, I agree with JSwan a pain issue.
I had a 5 yr old, who had been going well, then suddenly started with mild crowhopping in the turns at the canter. Took a long time to find the problem but we did, as he otherwise seemed sound after all exams. Joan Wilson, massage therapist, found the problem. Pulled hamstring, RH. She broke up the adhesions and with some specialized therapy he recovered.
Indeed, he was trying to tell us something.
Have you tried the bute test. 5 days bute (ride on day 3, 4 and 5 to see if the behavior stops)? That might help you pinpoint if it is a pain problem.
Have you tried different ways to gather your reins?
Itsybitsy spider neutral, way high, inside high?
Grab a short inside first, neutral or leave high, then itsy outside?
Grab slide inside, then outside and boot forward before yield at the poll?
There’s a bajillion ways, and I wonder if your way startles him.
My horse does something similar…not buck right away but balks and then threatens to buck. My coach explained that he is missing the link between going forward with contact. He may be fine at the walk, trot, and canter, but going from no contact to contact is the link he is missing.
I would spend a few days just working from long rein at the walk, to collecting the rein with contact. Also at the trot. Sounds like the horse just does not understand how to or want to work when you are first grabbing the contact.
NHWR, Just had to comment that “B” - leave it to the animal. Well, you are an animal, too, as we all are. Therefore, with ample room for error in our understanding and interpretations of situations… just like the horse.
I don’t want to sound combative, but I am with Paula on the approach. It’s humane, compassionate, and not indulgent.
AndI agree with the poster that the bucking may be inconvenient, but is it problematic?
I know that stretching the front legs with the girth is popular, but, please, be careful. Cold muscles will not benefit!, and if this stretching is done repeatedly, it will damage those muscles that are already challenged by our weight and their innate build. I see grooms TUG on those front legs and I wince… Better to walk for 10min., then get off and gently stretch those front legs. Stretch WARM muscles … please!
He may have learned this or he may be uncomfortable for whatever reason.
In case it is just habit, I would try changing things up completely. So start out keeping him on the bit for the first 15 minutes, or even better start out cantering or trotting. Yes, I would try the latter first. Get on and go into trot right away…
Change the routine. It won’t hurt him and may tell you something.
You can give him the free rein walk later…
[QUOTE=cyberbay;6886648]
NHWR, Just had to comment that “B” - leave it to the animal. Well, you are an animal, too, as we all are. Therefore, with ample room for error in our understanding and interpretations of situations… just like the horse.
I don’t want to sound combative, but I am with Paula on the approach. It’s humane, compassionate, and not indulgent.
AndI agree with the poster that the bucking may be inconvenient, but is it problematic?
I know that stretching the front legs with the girth is popular, but, please, be careful. Cold muscles will not benefit!, and if this stretching is done repeatedly, it will damage those muscles that are already challenged by our weight and their innate build. I see grooms TUG on those front legs and I wince… Better to walk for 10min., then get off and gently stretch those front legs. Stretch WARM muscles … please![/QUOTE]
I’m “older” and quite protective of MY soundness. I wouldn’t ride a known bucker bareback…if at all. Not saying this is the case at all but sometimes you get what you anticipate.
ASSUMING the horse has been checked out sound I would lunge the horse to warm up then mount and start to ride on light contact, with a lot of caveletti and hill work. Sophie also seems happy with her Thinline girth
I agree with those who say second level seems to be a bit much after 18 months under saddle.
How much is the horse turned out?
I’m going to be the voice of dissent here, surprise, surprise. :lol:
Okay, so you’ve COMPLETELY ruled out any pain issues. Check.
Next, you rule out that you are doing anything rude when picking up the reins. Check.
Last, I suggest you read Henry Blake’s books. Since it’s one buck, I’m wondering if it’s just becoming a habit for him. Especially if he works well otherwise and has a happy attitude once you’re going. For some reason people seem to think that horses do not have quirks. They couldn’t be more wrong. They often do, and sometimes if you try to remove one, you create another worse one or ruin their happy attitude. It’s their “thing.”
Like I said, if you’ve removed all other issues and he’s very happy working after the buck, it might just be one thing you have to deal with to have a happy horse–and as long as he’s happy with you and works hard for you, and you don’t feel at risk, then just let him have it and get on with work.
Read Henry Blake’s “Talking with Horses” and check out the section about Cork Beg (I think that was the name of the horse). Sometimes they just have a quirk and keeping it is the way to keep them happy!
(I often have to wonder how much experience a lot of people on this board have had with starting horses. The more you start, the more you begin to understand that each one is different and not all issues are from pain or the rider. Some horses just have quirks. I’m not saying you don’t analyze and eliminate possible causes, but when it’s one thing, always at the same time, and you’ve tried multiple solutions and the horse does not seem unhappy–then it’s often a personality quirk and it’s often OKAY as long as YOU can deal with it. Some of the best horses in the world have some pretty amazing quirks and their riders let them have them as long as they are not dangerous.)
I’m going to be the voice of dissent here
Not really… maybe read the other posts before declaring yourself as such…lol
Have you checked his teeth? Wolf teeth? I’m just saying that because it occurs when you pick up the reins and he protests by bucking. Otherwise, he may have a rib out and should be adjusted…or you are wrong and there is a saddle fit issue. Carrying the tail to one side when not mounted is a big red flag.
Having read last year’s post describing a myriad of signs of discomfort, and the history on his “training” u/s, I’m having a hard time believing that
a) the horse is sound
b) he’s up to doing 2nd level work
c) the OP has done any significant determination of the soundness issues or saddle fit.
[QUOTE=JSwan;6886273]
And yet the horse is sensitive to palpation of his back. He’s carrying his tail crooked, his hind legs are dragging, and he’s cross cantering and swapping leads. And bucking.
Those are not the actions of a sound horse.
The saddle can fit and the horse still be in severe pain from a condition like kissing spines.[/QUOTE]
:yes:
OP, there’s nothing weird about his bucking. He’s in pain.
Get a competent vet to give him a thorough lameness exam. Do it.
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