Yes, just because “a vet examined and deemed horse sound”, that means squat. Take the horse another vet/specialist for a second opinion. 75% of the vets in my area are worthless…
[QUOTE=paulaedwina;6886058]
RE: Even if the horse is uncomfortable, he must be taught that bucking is not an appropriate response.
That is an interesting point of view. I take a different tack -if it were saddle fit (of course we’re just speculating here, but for the sake of argument) I wouldn’t punish the buck, I’d fix the saddle.
Paula[/QUOTE]
The quoted quote here is my way of thinking. The buck is completely unacceptable no matter what.
I think the first thing I would try is teaching the horse to be a soldier. No lolly gagging on the buckle.
Hop on and put him in a long frame right from the start.
2nd level MOVEMENTS are not that tough. A true 2nd level frame may be a bit much at this point depending on his muscle development and body maturity.
rein back, leg yield and shoulder-in are basic obedience.
What else is 2nd level? Lengthens? Those are doable as well.
Maybe some smaller circles? All doable in a Training level frame as are the more lateral type movements.
Yes, just because “a vet examined and deemed horse sound”, that means squat.
It means a lot more than idle speculation on the interwebbs :lol:
Every interaction we have with our horses involves training. Hopefully, it involves a knowledgable rider working to impart productive training and behavior to the horse. But just often, the horses are trying to teach us to accept things. Ultimately, one (rider or horse) has to take the leadership role.
I’m of the opinion that bucking is bad behavior. Some here seem to find it acceptable. That’s fine with me and my compliments to your trainer. Different strokes 
I don’t think anyone disagrees that bucking is “bad behavior”.
I think the disagreement is about whether or not it warrants investigation into why the behavior is being expressed.
Here’s my thoughts on the matter: my horses can express their discomfort without endangering my safety. There’s also a little bit of princess-and-the-pea syndrome with one of my horses. She’s going to have to work through a little bit of discomfort (think: muscle fatigue the day after a long ride). I’m not beating her senseless, but I am making sure that I call the shots.
It’s not the same as silencing a growling dog. The growl isn’t in and of itself dangerous. Bucking can be.
By all means send the horse to the vet and check it over. Check the saddle, check the bits, check everything up and down those hind legs and up the spine. But I still expect my horses (even if they’re a little uncomfortable) to mind my safety.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;6887343]
I don’t think anyone disagrees that bucking is “bad behavior”.
I think the disagreement is about whether or not it warrants investigation into why the behavior is being expressed.[/QUOTE]
Particularly since the OP has had the horse since birth and posted a year ago that the horse was stiff, sore-backed, sore-footed and dragging his toes.
I expect my horse to “mind my safety” and behave himself, too. But he’s sound and he’s trained. I suspect this horse is neither.
People, like I said… The issues he was having last year are no longer there He doesn’t carry his tail to the side, neither is his back sensitive to palpation…
I know this horse through and through, he is not expressing any signs of pain. Contrary to popular belief, NOT every behavior stems from pain 
Anyways, thanks for all the replies, I do appreciate everyone trying to help me figure this out. And please, this is an internet forum, none of you even know me, so I would appreciate it if you refrain from tearing down my riding, training and horse care skills Since I DO know me, I have decided to just ignore any and all snark, so might as well not even post it if you’re just going to be rude
I didn’t say anywhere that we are showing 2nd level… I said training, as in, not perfected yet. Which means that yes, he can do all the lateral work, quite easy. Collection is a work in progress, but really, after 18 months of training, they can handle more than trotting around on the forehand.
Talked to a friend today that asked me when he started this… Which got me thinking. He started doing this after I moved to our current barn, where he is the only gelding with 3 other mares. He can also see the other horses now from the arena, unlike at the last barn… Wonder if it could have anything to do with being in a new environment??
Getting ready now to head out to the barn and try some of the ideas posted here
In all due respect, I think you may be grasping at straws with your last post… especially your last statement about his new housing. That makes no sense whatsoever.
I don’t recall anyone saying that you are showing 2nd level. In your first post you said that you were schooling 2nd.
I also didn’t see the background that others posted about this horse and the obvious physical problems you posted about in the past.
Clearly, if he had them then and while you “might” think they are resolved now, it sounds to me like that is not the case.
Regardless of the potential pain issue – for a warmblood that was backed at 4, let down for a year, then is schooling 2nd at 5 1/2 (which makes it about 5 mos. back in work the way I read it), well that’s a bit much for any young horse – much less one that appeared to have pretty significant medical issues.
Not all vets are created equal. Sounds to me like this horse is tolerating an ongoing probem, and probably being quite a good guy about it. And on top of it is being pushed way beyond what he should be doing right now.
Sometimes horsepeople want to get the answers they want to hear…not the ones that they need to know.
I’m with Ghazzu on this one…and BTW, Ghazzu is a vet, if you didn’t know that already.
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Rule out the physical.
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CHANGE THE PATTERN!!! He has learned the pattern so he knows what comes next. So never do the same thing twice! Get on and pick up a trot. Then walk. It will not kill him!! Let him wonder what in the world you are going to do next. Try cantering him when he is not ready–then smooth it out later. Do you ever hack him? Do hill work? Cavaletti? Jump?
You have created this problem by repeating the same thing over and over.
Remember, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result!!
Good luck!!
If a horse is in pain, changing the pattern won’t change a thing…maybe temporarily.
Always. Must eliminate pain first. They can’t talk. They exhibit it in behavior. If one looks at the latter first, and the first later?
Well there is trouble ahead, and it’s just not fair to the horse.
I don’t think I have much else to offer other than 30 years with a ton of horses from birth to death. Was this baby difficult as a baby? If not, why would it be difficult under saddle ( we gleaned that the problem was medical fror your original posts.)
No cookie cutter answers, and clearly they may all have quirks. But that should never be confused with pain or being a bit anthropormphic – and/or just ignoring that annoynance and keep pushing the horse to “progress” with them. Some horses can progress with pain, but only so far.
As JSwan said. Horemanship 101. Find a new vet who it not going to tell you what you want to hear. Get to the root of the problem and fix it before more damage is done. Horses habituate. Even when the problem is fixed it can take a long time for them to understand they don’t hurt. Rats in a skinner box.
Sadly, I have seen this happen all to often. Not a slam, but there is a lot of “fuzzy” in your posts and history about the medical issues about this horse. Just because you’ve had this horse as a baby means zip. You have what you have in front of you now.
And I’ll say it again. A wb with basically 5 mos of consistent training should not be schooling 2nd level. I’m surprised he hasn’t dumped you by now unless he’s an FEI type that will kill himself to achieve, despite the rider/trainer.
My advice, as you asked for it would be to regroup and let go of your aspirations, even momentarily, to find out what that buck is all about…and do what is right by the horse. He’s SO young. To do this now will pay off later, I can assure you.
[QUOTE=sid;6887709]
If a horse is in pain, changing the pattern won’t change a thing…maybe temporarily.
Always. Must eliminate pain first. They can’t talk. They exhibit it in behavior. If one looks at the latter first, and the first later?
Well there is trouble ahead, and it’s just not fair to the horse.
I don’t think I have much else to offer other than 30 years with a ton of horses from birth to death. Was this baby difficult as a baby? If not, why would it be difficult under saddle ( we gleaned that the problem was medical fror your original posts.)
No cookie cutter answers, and clearly they may all have quirks. But that should never be confused with pain or being a bit anthropormphic – and/or just ignoring that annoynance and keep pushing the horse to “progress” with them. Some horses can progress with pain, but only so far.
As JSwan said. Horemanship 101. Find a new vet who it not going to tell you what you want to hear. Get to the root of the problem and fix it before more damage is done. Horses habituate. Even when the problem is fixed it can take a long time for them to understand they don’t hurt. Rats in a skinner box.
Sadly, I have seen this happen all to often. Not a slam, but there is a lot of “fuzzy” in your posts and history about the medical issues about this horse. Just because you’ve had this horse as a baby means zip. You have what you have in front of you now.
And I’ll say it again. A wb with basically 5 mos of consistent training should not be schooling 2nd level. I’m surprised he hasn’t dumped you by now unless he’s an FEI type that will kill himself to achieve, despite the rider/trainer.
My advice, as you asked for it would be to regroup and let go of your aspirations, even momentarily, to find out what that buck is all about…and do what is right by the horse. He’s SO young. To do this now will pay off later, I can assure you.[/QUOTE]
Wow. Please tell me you don’t talk down to people like that in real live?
Clearly you know my horse and me better than I do…
Anyways. Back to the real world. Rode today and took the contact right from the start. No buck 
So yes, I guess I am going to switch things up for a while…
Don’t get after people for trying to help. YOU are the one that started this and the other thread. No one butted into your personal business - you invited comment.
It’s not our fault if you don’t like the answers.
[QUOTE=JSwan;6887837]
Don’t get after people for trying to help. YOU are the one that started this and the other thread. No one butted into your personal business - you invited comment.
It’s not our fault if you don’t like the answers.[/QUOTE]
But I do agree that some of the armchair QBing is done by people with NO experience in training horses, and yet they come out here and talk as if they do. To disagree with those people, or ones with very limited experience, is generally the smart course of action. You can usually tell who they are. They claim to know every detail of the situation and also feel that they are dead right and will constantly dismiss comments by others or the OP as being of no value whatsoever.
When HELPING (not just kvetching out here on topics like rollkur), people who know what they’re talking usually don’t feel the need to beat up the OP for asking–unless they are the ones turning it into a snark fest. I think this OP is dead on and is asking for ideas/opinions and then defending her horse since she is the one who has to deal with the situation.
People don’t come out here asking for help and kissing the feet of those who provide feedback. That’s just foolish. They are asking for ideas and are allowed to then go home and try to separate the wheat from the chaff. Other posters need to get over it if they are considered chaff.
The OP did the reasonable thing first-had the vet out, reviewed saddle fit and biting issues. The problem was ongoing. If there is still some concern there is a simple process to determine if the problem is pain related. Bute the horse and see if the problem remains. Frankly, I probably would have done that before I called the vet.
After this preliminary investigation, the OP reasonably (imo) concluded the issue is behavioral and sought advice for that here. Rather than getting the vapors and stalking through a poster’s previous comments, saying their vet is incompetent or criticizing their training program, how about applying Occham’s razor and just answering the question?
Bucking is bad behavior, like yelling. If your horse needs to yell for you to know its in pain, well that a whole 'nother discussion.
If there is still some concern there is a simple process to determine if the problem is pain related. Bute the horse and see if the problem remains.
Just an aside comment and not necessarily in relation to the OP’s horse but to many horses with resistances out there, I would be rather leery of that easy an assumption.
So when Buted and the problem remains the same, what conclusion to draw from that precisely?
That it is behavioral?
I would hope that most owners and vets don’t fall into the trap of assuming because Bute doesn’t fix the problem the horse is thereby not in pain.
Years of trying different nsaids to no avail on a horse that years back was just NQR but still performing under saddle and me thinking “I was the one that couldn’t ride” could easily have led me to believe there wasn’t a pain issue, glad I stuck to my guns and knew it was a pain issue (and sadly by now it unmistakely always was :().
Or some other horse I know of, years of NQR needing lots of trainer correction, yet showing succesfully, until eventually the horse totally refused to move. Had been buted to no avail too, yet later diagnostics revealed kissing spines, which likely was the cause of the horse’s misbehavior and resistances already present in previous years.
I do not know the OP’s horse and I think we have no way of knowing what is going on, we are all just guessing. The OP sounds astute enough to look into the issue objectively, else she would not be posting here.
[QUOTE=Libera;6887806]
Wow. Please tell me you don’t talk down to people like that in real live?
Clearly you know my horse and me better than I do…
Anyways. Back to the real world. Rode today and took the contact right from the start. No buck
So yes, I guess I am going to switch things up for a while…[/QUOTE]
Typically, I’m more diplomatic…did not mean to offend you, really. I guess I’m getting crankier as I get older.:lol:
I think the question you posed brought up the constant questions we have when horses resist. Pain? Learned resistance? Greeny challenges?
What I was trying to pass on, having seen this sort of thing before, is that if it IS pain, one can never get the best out of the horse. And it’s not fair. Clearly, sometimes this is hard to discern. But if the problems progress and eventually one finds out is IS pain related, you’re kicking yourself. I’ve seen this with other owners in your situation. Horses have a long memory, even after they recover from what was ailing them while being ridden, so it can be a long memory come-back.
Your situation simply reminded me of similar experiences with others (many well meaning and attentive owners) who just ride them through it…when they really don’t know what the “it” is. Just trying to pass that on to save a possible similar scenario with your horse.
I’m a science head. When others brought up your past posts about the medical issues with your horse, which sounded pretty major – especially at such a young and formative age in u/s training-- that sent up a red flag. Thus my passing on my experience with the youngin’s. That’s all. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Glad to know you didn’t get a buck yesterday. That’s a pretty fast turnaround, from what you said is a consistent problem. What ever you changed up, glad it worked. Hope it lasts.
I really do appreciate the concern, and people taking the time to respond
So for that, thank you, to all of you!
It does seem like a rather easy fix… I didn’t get a chance to ride him today, but we will see what happens tomorrow.
It sounds a bit stupid, but it had never ever even crossed my mind to ride a horse on the contact right from the start… Back in school they drilled the “loose rein” into us very thoroughly, and I have never done it any other way since. Can still hear my old instructors barking at me! (And in Dutch it sounds a lot harsher, have had classmates in tears many times).
This is interesting. What happens when you trot on the long rein without picking it up the reins? Or walk longer/longer warmup? Or slowly inch up the reins lap by lap?
I have a horse that I didn’t train, someone else broke, and when I first got him he hate real rein contact, I had to ride with my hands in my lap. He is slowing getting better, took a year.
