WELLS: how much water per minute do I need?

[arlosmine]

Sooo…I am looking at a property to potentially purchase and make into a small horse facility.
10-ish horses, 70X140 indoor arena and turnout.
The property is perfect, but I’m concerned about the well. I think it’s been tested at 4 or 5 gallons per minute. The current owner has been there 50 years (!) and states that he gets good flow for about an hour or two, then it automatically turns off and refills before being used again. The well has been the same since he’s been there.

There is irrigation available for arena watering from May-Oct, so during the dryest months I won’t need the well for watering the arena…but I want to have enough for the horses, outdoor tanks, wash stall and arena when needed.

I could install some reserve tanks for emergency use, of course.

Any input from farm folks? Is this a valid concern?

[mvp]

I want to know, too.

In my area, Oregon’s Willamette Valley, banks won’t lend on a property that has a flow of fewer than 5 gallons per minute (over a 3 hour test). I think I have those details right. People work around that requirement in dry areas by installing huge holding tanks underground. Either way, you have to get a flow and quality test before a property changes hands here in Oregon. I forget which side pays for which test.

ETA: Well logs are a matter of public record… but I forget how you find 'em. I remember just googling around a lot. I have seen lots of old, hand-written forms scanned in so that you can find them on-line.

The other question I’d ask the long-term owner is about how the flow has changed in his well over time, particularly if there is some developments that got built around him during his half-century watch. It’s not obvious from the surface where the water flows underground, so the old-timer’s recollection about how his well changed (or didn’t) with development around the parcel is really valuable information.

I hope someone else can answer your original question as it’s one I need answered, too, and I have yet to find the horse-savvy realtor who can answer it for me.

Best of luck with your purchase!

[clanter]

[QUOTE=mvp;8892683]

ETA: Well logs are a matter of public record… but I forget how you find 'em. I remember just googling around a lot. [/QUOTE]

here is where you can find the info for Oregon
http://www.oregon.gov/OWRD/pages/index.aspx

OP… how much onsite water storage is there? What is the recharge time once the well is pumped to shut off time? Are you allowed to collect rainwater?

[StormyDay]

there are two things that you want to look at with wells; the refill rate and how much water is ‘stored’ in the area around your well. It sounds like it this well, both of those are adaquate for a home, but poor for a barn needing irrigation, bathing, water buckets, etc.
What part of the country are you in? I would be concerned if you were in the desert or something where you could potentially run out of water. You might want to consult a well expert on that. If the well is unlikely to run dry, then you could just install a 500 or 1000 gallon potable water Storage tank. I boarded at a barn who did this. They had 2 500 gallon storage tanks in the barn. We never ran out of water, that’s for sure!

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=arlosmine;8892627]
Sooo…I am looking at a property to potentially purchase and make into a small horse facility.
10-ish horses, 70X140 indoor arena and turnout.
The property is perfect, but I’m concerned about the well. I think it’s been tested at 4 or 5 gallons per minute. The current owner has been there 50 years (!) and states that he gets good flow for about an hour or two, then it automatically turns off and refills before being used again. The well has been the same since he’s been there.

There is irrigation available for arena watering from May-Oct, so during the dryest months I won’t need the well for watering the arena…but I want to have enough for the horses, outdoor tanks, wash stall and arena when needed.

I could install some reserve tanks for emergency use, of course.

Any input from farm folks? Is this a valid concern?[/QUOTE]

It is a valid concern; is it a “deal-breaker?”

At 4 gal./min. you’ve got daily production of just over 5700 gal/day. That’s a lot of water, likely more than sufficient for your needs. You might have to “manage” that production by using “holding tanks” of one kind or another. That will add expense (establishment, operation, and maintenance).

This is a job for Mr. Pencil and Mr. Yellow Pad. Write out your needs and how this amount of water can fulfill them, or not.

We still don’t know where you are. If you are in an arid climate your “delta” from production vs. need will have to be larger than if you are in a “wetter” climate where some of your needs might be fulfilled by rainfall.

Do the math and you’ll get a “first look” at whether this will work or not.

Good luck in your project.

G.

[vineyridge]

If you do get a property with a well, consider using a cycle stop valve which is supposed to keep the well pumping even when the pressure tank is empty. They are supposed to give the same pressure with an 86 gallon pressure tank as a 900 gallon metal tank. And they are not terribly expensive.

[arlosmine]

Wonderful information, here…I’m really hoping this isn’t a deal breaker, because the property is just beautiful and well placed for business and horse keeping.

I am in a semi-dry area. Very hot/dry May-Nov, but lots of rain Nov-April. Some folks have had serious well failures in some specific neighborhoods, so I’ve got my antenna up about this. This well has performed the same way for the entire 50 years the current owner has been there. It runs for about two hours straight then takes about the same time to refill. It’s 80’ deep, and there is another well on a neighboring lot that was dug 400’, though the water appeared at 80’ . It appears that the water table is at that depth. That well is a 600 GPM flow, but on a separate tax lot (I may get a lease on it for grazing).
I may potentially be able to use well number two for pasture tanks, but I’d have to figure out how to compensate the owner for the use of that well, which currently services a small house.

So…does anyone have more personal experiences for water conservation/well management for me?

The well will service not only the barn, but two person house and a one person cottage. I have a feeling that at high volume times, the well won’t keep multiple uses flowing simultaneously. I am currently thinking that I’d install a large storage tank on the barn and fill that during “off” hours: use that for in-barn watering (I’m going to use buckets and tubs).

I could cirtainly organize the barn schedule such that the barn watering happens primarily at times that the houses wouldn’t be using much water (after house people go to work).

People do have water storage tanks here, and I could easily use the indoor arena roof as a water catch system. That water could be added to the storage tank as well.

I’ve already planned on a grey-water above ground swale/catch-area for wash rack run off. I hate drains, and love gardens…so the water will be filtered by plants as part of a waste water conservation plan. The water will run under the exterior wash stall wall directly into a curtain drain.

The property has EXCELLENT irigation, so that’s a blessing. The arena can be watered with that water most of the dryest time.

[clanter]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8892928]
It is a valid concern; is it a “deal-breaker?”

At 4 gal./min. you’ve got daily production of just over 5700 gal/day. That’s a lot of water, likely more than sufficient for your needs. .[/QUOTE]

would be 5700 but the 4 gallon rate stated is only good for 1 or 2 hours (which most likely means 30 minutes to an hour max)… the recharge rate wasn’t provided

We are on city water which is metered; with seven head, winter time we will use less than 4,000 for everything including the household of two… summers we water some of the pasture and wash the horses down each evening so we can hit 40,000 in a normal summer month and we have about five or six of those … a bad summer we use much less as there is no need to even try to grow any grass when its above 105F

My concern regarding the OP would be fire protection… without adequate water on site there may not be enough water to knock down much of a fire as a pumper truck usually only carries about 1,000 gallons.

[horsepoor]

[QUOTE=arlosmine;8892958]

The property has EXCELLENT irigation, so that’s a blessing. The arena can be watered with that water most of the dryest time.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know where you are, but you should verify that the water right for your irrigation actually allows for this usage. I would be surprised if it does. Coming from someone that has spent a long time working in the field. Don’t just go by the current owner saying that’s what they do.

[arlosmine]

Good point, horsepoor.
There are two facilities within a few miles of this property. Both use irrigation water for the indoor and outdoor arena systems. I a bit reluctant to ask about it because I don’t want to draw attention to it if it not allowed. Since the property is EFU zoned, and a horse facility is an approved use, I’d be very surprised if it wasn’t allowed. If it was a residential zoning, I could see that being an issue.

[horsepoor]

Well…just saying it is something I’d certainly check on before buying. I wouldn’t want to count on that to make up for the crappy well and then lose it later (when someone turns you in for an unauthorized purpose). I’d just want to be sure it was a valid use so I don’t get burned later.

[Equibrit]

Is it a bored or drilled well, how deep ? How good is the ground water ?

[Prime_Time_Rider]

Is it possible to have another well drilled for barn use? I would contact a local well driller for an estimate,

[partita]

First, a 50 year old well may not be public record.
Second, do not take anyone’s word for how reliable the well is.
It would be well worth the money to have a few professionals take a look at it and advise. Also have the water tested. A good professional with a good reputation and lots of experience should be familiar with the area and might be familiar with other wells in the area, how old they are, how deep, how productive, how troublesome. You could also talk with neighbors. Even if the well is not terrific, you might be able to do some upgrades.

We dug our own well after throwing our hands up with the 3 party well we were on when we bought our place. The other two parties did not want to throw any $$ at it to upgrade. We ran out of water every summer. So we put the $$$$$$$$$$$ into our own well and system. Our well is 600’ deep. Produces only 2-4 gallons a minute. We have a 2500 gallon holding tank in the pumphouse. The pump at the bottom of the well pumps into this holding tank. Then there is a booster pump that pumps from there into the pressurized tank. And from there it goes to the house and barn.

This works well, even though it is a low producing well, because we always have 2500 gallons on hand. It is plenty to water a 70x140 arena, but it is time consuming and uses ALOT of water. I’ve done it many times. With a hose. By hand. I finally put down Magnesium Chloride (SafeStep 6400 I think it was) and now I no longer need to water. When the footing dries out too much I will add more MagChlor.

Water saving tips: Do not empty and clean water troughs until the horses have drunk them down low. We don’t water our lawn. Run the dishwasher when it is full. Never leave a hose running. I recycle some water to water plants with. We don’t have to be extra careful as our system serves us just fine. I just think water is a precious resource and shouldn’t be taken for granted! So I try not to waste it.

Good luck! Hope it works out.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=arlosmine;8893114]
Good point, horsepoor.
There are two facilities within a few miles of this property. Both use irrigation water for the indoor and outdoor arena systems. I a bit reluctant to ask about it because I don’t want to draw attention to it if it not allowed. Since the property is EFU zoned, and a horse facility is an approved use, I’d be very surprised if it wasn’t allowed. If it was a residential zoning, I could see that being an issue.[/QUOTE]

Dust abatement may not fall under the acceptable category, though. Here we are not supposed to use irrigation water for watering arenas. I’ve seen people do it, however. We do get “city water” piped in for the house and I think technically we could use it for the arena as you’re allowed to use a certain amount for the yard. I know people who do that as well.

As far as well production, I don’t think I’d want anything under 10gpm; and really, the more the better. If there are any new developments going in around you, they will be taking from the water table. Our last place had 22 or so and that was fine. I was careful about filling buckets, bathing, and not wasting water.

I would not count on the seller’s report and would have my own testing done. The good news is that it is fairly shallow so presumably you could drill deeper if necessary. We had neighbors with 2-3 game at a few hundred feet deep. No bueno.

[vineyridge]

One of the virtues of partita’s system is that there is stored water on hand in case of fire. One thing that you should probably do if you go with that kind of system is make sure that you have a valve in front of the pressure tank that is large enough for a fire hose to be attached. That system plus a cycle stop valve will give give you unlimited water to the amount that your well can deliver.

You might want to call these people: aquascience.net They have an A+ BBB rating. And their prices are quite exceptionally good.

[findthedistance]

I manage a property with two 500’ wells that tag-team. Each well tests at 1.5-2.5 gpm, so we average 4 gpm output. That well system serves our barns, office, and one efficiency apartment. We have 21 horses on the property, with some boarders and a mid-size lesson program (~50 students/week). We do have pressure tanks, though I would guess the combined water storage capacity is only ~300 gal.

It’s doable, but we definitely schedule farm activities based on water usage. Essentially, we have enough water to do one thing at a time. Fill troughs OR do laundry OR water the arena. We can do all of those tasks sequentially without running out of water, but never more that one at a time.

I would be concerned about the fact that this property’s well is known to time out and shut off. That’s a good safety feature for the well pump, but it sounds like it’s being overtaxed if it shuts off with any frequency.

[arlosmine]

Hi again, thank you for so much input!
I had a contractor come out to look at the property yesterday. He’s not a “well guy”: he’s a “dirt guy”…the best base/arena installer in the area, who has done TONS of facilities here. He felt confident that installing a large holding tank midway between the well and barn would be easy and cost effective…

I am going to do a flow test, for sure (Probably ask seller to do that), and I’ll call some well companies for input about the projected water needs versus flow on the property.
Due diligence sucks.
Now I’ve discovered that the setbacks on the property are super tight/problematic for arena placement. UGH!

[gumtree]

Reading the comments and having lived, hung out in some arid areas of the country I do not take my abundant water resource for granted. But I don’t have to worry about leaving a hose running by accident ever. I can revel in a long hot shower for as long as I want after a long cold day on the farm. Without a bit of guilt nor worry.

We have two wells. The second dug more than 12 years ago. 350’, 250 of standing water. The well digger said we could supply a small town.

Depth of the well is one thing, it may need to be bored 1000 feet to hit water but that number doesn’t mean anything by and large. There are 2 key numbers to know; Standing water in the riser/well pipe. This is where the term water seeks its own level comes into play. When water is hit the driller will go X amount of feet below this level and install casing/pipe.

Depending on the water “pressure” in the ground/ aquifer water may fill the pipe only to the level where water was first hit or continue up the pipe "seeking its own level.

The “standing water” is the “holding tank” which the pump draws from. The driller and or the owner checks this by taking a measurement. Drop a weighted sting/measuring tape to the bottom. Draw it back up letting it pass through one’s finger tips until they find the wet spot. Check the measurement/distance from the bottom to height of the standing water.

Do the math, 200 foot deep well with 100 feet of standing water will hold about 400 gallons of standing water in a 6" wide stand pipe.

The math is easy these days with internet. Which is why most of us can’t do it anymore with pencil and paper.
http://www.hydro-terra.com/well-volume-calculator/

The next very important number/calculation is recharge rate. Draw down the standing water X amount of gallons and time how long it takes for the aquifer to replenish/replace what was taken out. This is what the number X gallons of water per minute means. A well that has 440 gallons of standing water and is rated at 4 gallons per minute will take around 2 hours to recharge all 440 gallons.

Depending on when the well was dug and when the local health department and or state government over seeing wells required all new wells to be documented. The above information will/should be on file. But aquifers can and do change over time. Especially if a lot of development has occurred since the well in question was drilled. The added demand can and does play an important roll.

The time of year when the well was tested/rated can have a huge effect on the “numbers” in areas that don’t receive steady rain fall. If the well was tested in the spring after abundant spring rains and or after a heavy snow pack has melted but the area doesn’t get much rain after that. What the well was producing at the time of testing could be very different if tested/rated in say August or September.

Long established well drilling operators are usually a better source of accurate information than local government bureaucrats.

[mvp]

Yes, flow tests will vary with the season. Weather patterns here do mean that you need August/September numbers in order to see what underground water supplies will look like at their worst.

Also, I think you can put in a call to your area’s (state’s?) Water Master about the acceptable uses for irrigation. Does the property come with water rights? Or do you have the option to buy a water contract from some agency? The selling agent should be able to direct you to the right source of information. Getting these details right is (unfortunately) another layer of due diligence the buyer has to do.

In the case of the property I was looking at, I could have bought a water contract for irrigation from the Army Corps of Engineers (provided they were still selling them in that year… and that entitled me to water up to a certain number of feet/acre… when their was water to be had). But! I’d have to pay to build the pipe or irrigation pond on my place and do permitting with the city for that. And I would not be able to use that water for watering an arena.

Just an example and also some reassurance that you won’t be risking a whole lot by calling and asking questions about a property you don’t own. I don’t think they keep notes on who calls and wants basic information about how water rights or contracts work, uses and which parcel is eligible for what.