Were you surprised? (welfare in dressage at all levels)

[pluvinel]

@sherian

nice young trainers who are pretty riders but the horses are bubble wrapped to the point of smothering the poor things and then they wonder why the end up with suspensory issues and spooky, explosive horses.

Because they have learned on trained horses. Some young trainers have not had to manage livestock farms dealing with animals on their terms. The SRS has their breeding farm at Piber out in open country, not inside the city of Vienna where the shows are. At the outer farms of the stud, they manage the mares, young stallions intended for further training or for sale and all the young stock.

As much as people want to treat horses differently than a farm animal, they are domesticated livestock. People need to respect the animal and acknowledge they have personalities, just like people. Some are higher energy and need turnout, others are willing to be “couch potatoes” and hang out in a pasture or stall eating hay.

I was at Strömsholm, Sweden over a summer when the king/queen’s horses were turned out for summer vacation.

[MsM]

I think the turnout issue is both a location and a " high performance" problem.
Turnout is extremely limited in some places, no matter what your preferences.
And I have found the bubble wrap " can’t risk turnout" attitude in show barns of many disciplines. I remember walking through a QH show barn with my mom. Although it was at least 55 degrees, the horses were in their stalls with blankets and hoods enough to brave the Arctic. A guy overheard my mom ask “How do they go out to play?” He indignantly said “These are show horses! They don’t go out and play!” I moved my mom along as she kept murmuring “The poor prisoners”.

[Lunabear1988]

I tell my horse he’s lucky he’s owned by a “poor” average amateur. He lives outside, gets to be dirty and gets turned out in a group!

I boarded at a barn once where noone wanted their horses out and definitely not in groups. The horses were all very angry except for mine but I had to BEG for turnout for him.

[pluvinel]

@Lunabear1988

I tell my horse he’s lucky he’s owned by a “poor” average amateur.

It isn’t just the “amateur” label…there is also, “my horse is a dressage horse” (nose up in the air) by some upper level riders.

And heaven forbid that the horse go out and do some “normal” horse stuff like team penning, fox hunting or paper chases…though I know a high level judge who does fox hunt her horses.

When someone asks what kind of riding I do, I never say “dressage”…I just say I just putz around.

[mombc24]

I’m finding that quite a few of the top riders lately are showing on their social media the horses in turnout, or taking a chill day bareback in a halter, hacking out of the ring, playing at liberty, etc.

[Knights_Mom]

My guy goes out from late afternoon, like 4 or 5 to the next morning. He plays with others over fences because he gets very into his play. Too into it LOL

[quietann]

Oh I get the “can’t go out with others” issue. Feronia is so good with people, but won’t turn her out with others as she is food aggressive and a “kick first, no warning” type who has injured other horses through the fence if they got too close to her hay. She was in a herd at her breeder’s place, but it was the herd she was born into, and they had a lot of space.

[Mardi1]

@pluvinel

Heck…horses took soldiers to war with cannon fire exploding around them. Is it too much to expect these “highly trained” GP horses to be able to walk into a stadium?

War horses may have bravely taken soldiers to war, but I would bet that not all of those horses
went forward without some balking, spinning, running off, and at the very least, tension.

The GP horses are trained at GP.
They’re not primarily trained to walk into a show ring circus environment, and perform. Just like the war horses, some cannot tolerate it. If an owner has a horse that can do both, great.

The GP test reflects GP training, only, and that’s what they’re being judged on. As far as I know, there’s no mention in rule books about scoring on how electric the show ring environment may be. For example: “Show ring atmosphere: 4”

[sammy14]

I think the conditions horses are expected to perform in are at times unethical, and in part responsible for unethical training practices.Rollkur for example is a method employed to exact obedience from horses no matter what is going on.Some of the stalls at the big competitions are tiny, the horse can’t even lie down.I’m totally unsurprised at a lot of what goes on to be able to manage flight animals bred to be hot and electric in these public spectacle fun fairs we call dressage competitions these days

[pluvinel]

@Mardi1

The GP horses are trained at GP.
They’re not primarily trained to walk into a show ring circus environment, and perform.

I would offer that the GP show ring IS a circus environment. There is no functional purpose to any of the required movements…they don’t have to round up a cow, close a gate, jump a hurdle. All they do is prance around, cross their legs and see how much “wow factor” they can get out of the judge.

@Mardi1

The GP test reflects GP training, only, and that’s what they’re being judged on.

True. And the test requires “fluency” as part of the test directives. If the horse is wound up, then whatever movements the horse does are “coerced” and the horse does not do the movements as stated in the rulebook

As a result, it makes the horse calm, supple, loose and flexible, but also confident, attentive and keen, thus achieving perfect understanding with the rider…
…The horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the rider,

[Knights_Mom]

I’m willing to bet a bunch of $$ that there are soldiers who ended up dying due to a horse disobeying aids or just freaking out.

Imagine being the soldier who was killed because your horse was naughty and ran the wrong way or didn’t turn or whoa!!

[Alterration]

@Knights_Mom

I’m willing to bet a bunch of $$ that there are soldiers who ended up dying due to a horse disobeying aids or just freaking out.

Imagine being the soldier who was killed because your horse was naughty and ran the wrong way or didn’t turn or whoa!!

From what I understand the bulk of the cavalry actually had really untrained potentially rank horses that were just galloping the same way all the rest of the horses galloped (hence the ugly faces in a lot of old paintings and huge horrifying bits). So chances were if you were in the center you were just getting carried along by the herd. I’m sure there were some casualties there just as a result of horses being horses, falls, collisions, and other nonsense. A lot of horses didn’t make it through more than one battle, so I can’t imagine how they would get them seasoned - probably lots of drill team riding.

It was the leaders who got the “well trained ones”. Which is why they were often at the front of the battle, because the other horses would follow too.

[DownYonder]

@Knights_Mom

I’m willing to bet a bunch of $$ that there are soldiers who ended up dying due to a horse disobeying aids or just freaking out.

Imagine being the soldier who was killed because your horse was naughty and ran the wrong way or didn’t turn or whoa!!

I watched a video of the British horse guard giving their horses a day at the beach. They were being led in or ridden in bareback and some of them - obviously old pros - waded right in. Others were spooking at the waves and backing up, rearing, whirling and generally refusing to enter the water. I think I even remember seeing one of them that got away from his handler. So yeah, they are as prone to disobediences as other horses. They are prey animals, after all, and it is hard to overcome millions of years of instinct.

[pluvinel]

@DownYonder

So yeah, they are as prone to disobediences as other horses.

It is not a “disobedience”…it is a training opportunity.

The fact that the British Horse Guards were at the beach with their horses is not a vacation…it is a training event to get horses used to a different circumstances. The Royal Horse Guards do all the ceremonial work so they are probably faced with unruly crowd control during official events.

[DownYonder]

@pluvinel

It is not a “disobedience”…it is a training opportunity.

It is both. The horses disobeyed their rider’s requests to walk into the water, most likely because they had never seen such before and were alarmed by the situation.The riders then had to use that opportunity to train the horses to understand that the water and waves would not harm them.

Also, dealing with an unruly crowd is a different situation from dealing with rushing waves, swirling currents, sand that shifts out from under their hooves, the noise of wind and surf and seagulls and such. In each case, the horses have to be trained to accept the situation.

That said, I wonder if there were horses there who HAD been to the beach before, and still said, “No thanks.” And if some of those were horses that calmly wade into an unruly crowd but are still undone by the beach excursion.

As all know, horses react differently to different stimuli. Yes, most can be trained to accept various situations but there are always those that just can’t handle certain things. My gelding was a maniac in the stabling area at shows and the warm-up ring but would breathe a huge sigh of relief the minute he entered the dressage court, where he could lay down 70%+ tests. My mare on the other hand was calm as a cucumber in the stable area at shows but would get tense and spooky when walking around the grounds. That is part of what makes horses so intriguing - they are all different personalities.

[pluvinel]

@Mardi1

As far as I know, there’s no mention in rule books about scoring on how electric the show ring environment may be. For example: “Show ring atmosphere: 4”

You are right. There is nothing in the dressage rulebook for judges to score the show ring environment.

BUT…if a horse loses its marbles in an electric show ring environment, then my premise is the following: Regardless of what “GP movements” the horse can do at home, there are fundamental holes in its training if the horse becomes unfocused in new and strange environments and the judges should appropriately judge the HORSE and its lack of performance due to its anxiety.

There is NO WAY a tense horse can perform any movement above 5 (Marginal/Sufficient) or more probably a 4 (Insufficient) when the GP test directives repeatedly call out for “balance” and ""fluency as qualities to be judged.

[Cowgirl]

What’s Happening: March 2024 (eurodressage.com)

Scroll to the bottom to the section entitled “Dixit”… It’s time for an overhaul of the judge system

[netg]

@pluvinel

BUT…if a horse loses its marbles in an electric show ring environment, then my premise is the following: Regardless of what “GP movements” the horse can do at home, there are fundamental holes in its training if the horse becomes unfocused in new and strange environments and the judges should appropriately judge the HORSE and its lack of performance due to its anxiety.

There is NO WAY a tense horse can perform any movement above 5 (Marginal/Sufficient) or more probably a 4 (Insufficient) when the GP test directives repeatedly call out for “balance” and ""fluency as qualities to be judged

Tension and losing marbles are not the same thing.
I’m attempting to attach a 16 second clip of a first level 8 movement during the State championships… in which my horse was tense. She happens to be a horse with whom bystanders who don’t know her aren’t aware how much more swing and suspension she would have if relaxed, but she’s an example of how a horse who is tense can score well. If she lost her mind, I would expect correspondingly horrible scores.

I’ve never seen a judge score a horse well when it lost its mind. I have, however, seen a judge mark a horse down into the below-4 range for launching into a bucking fit when startled by someone coming out from behind the announcers booth while he was doing a training level 20m canter circle. He was relaxed and calm by the next movement despite his momentary fright and loss of his mind - to me, that was great training away from the show AND great riding, because the judge was swearing over the height and power of the bucking, but rider “sat chilly” as if it were expected, and the horse followed her calm lead.

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[paw]

But isn’t the whole point of correct training that the horse and rider are partners, and that if the partner on top says “trust me, it’s ok” that the partner on the bottom believe that?

If GP horses react to competition environments in a negative way, that’s telling on the partnership and the training. Scores should reflect that.

[Knights_Mom]

Really nice moving horse so I see it.