Were you surprised? (welfare in dressage at all levels)

[LilyandBaron]

The recent spate of videos/evidence of abuse at the top levels - many have commented that “people knew” and many have also noted that the majority of people that love dressage are not doing those things. I agree that most are probably not using stretchies, but I have personally found it challenging to find trainers I trust.

Thinking of how to describe what I find in most areas (former military, so moved around a lot):

1. There are a lot of trainers with no upper level experience - maybe former/current eventers, or h/j folks, or all-around trainers that do all the things. I’m not opposed to kind/correct trainers that maybe maxed out at second level to start, but if I want to move up, these folks aren’t particularly helpful in that quest.

2. Bad trainers!!! These folks go and show, maybe even have medals, but they crank/spank, ruin horses, convince clients it’s the horse, not the rider/training, use devices, or just don’t understand. Some are obviously nasty - harsh bits and huge spurs, waterskiing around the arena… Others - maybe they try an exercise, but then they want to drill it, beyond the physical/mental well-being of the horse in that moment. Or they just don’t know what they are doing. Some in my area literally have hosted clinics that were “closed door” because they KNEW the public or kind-hearted wouldn’t approve, and because they buy fancy horses and go and show, they convince people that “that’s what it takes” to win.

3. Good trainers! They do exist!!! They are few and far between, sometimes only for clinics depending on where you live. People who appreciate them line up for learning opportunities, but the ones that have spent time with the “bad trainers” are often embarrassed and don’t continue since they weren’t universally praised and told to do all the tricks, but instead had to work on the missing basics and leave a lesson or clinic feeling it wasn’t worth their money.

Am I wrong on what I’ve seen? As a result, I enter any lesson/clinic and tell the trainer I want to learn how to properly develop a horse, and would rather live at Intro or Training level than move up the wrong way. I think some appreciate this - they have to earn a living and I basically let them know if I get 10 good minutes with them and my horse and I have a learning moment, rewarded by ending on that great note, I’m happy to pay up, repeatedly!

Basically just here to say I see the good in dressage, but I also see a LOT of bad, at all levels. and I was not surprised by those videos in the least.

[Knights_Mom]

You are quite correct.

[Bogey2]

I am lucky enough to have some good legitimate FEI trainers in my area. There are a couple who call themselves FEI trainers who have no idea how to develop a horse up the levels they just got the medal because they rode a trained horse and it shows. I have never seen the type of abuse those videos show, I would step in if anyone did that in my presence.

[ClearDonkey]

Agreed with what I’ve seen.

I’ve heard of some absolutely unbelievably cruel things happening outside of my discipline, dressage, from my close friends that are immersed in the stock horse all-around. They are far from individuals making mistakes and poor choices out of ignorance or inexperience, but rather being calculated and cruel to produce results quickly. It’s disheartening, as it seems like there are so many people purposely harming animals for either profit or fame, but there is no tangible way to actually put a stop to it.

But on the flip side, there are so many people actively trying to do better and be better, as well as demanding change and accountability.

[RJC]

What are Stretchies? (Google wanted to tell me about stretchy circles and I don’t think that’s what you mean)

[joiedevie99]

@RJC

Stretchies

It’s a bungee tube run between the front fetlocks. Google American Saddlebred and stretchies or training shackles for examples.

[RJC]

Thank you! I’ve never seen or heard of these before, but just read up on them here: https://twistedsisterssaddlebreds.com/2014/02/12/training-aids/

For my education, why are these considered abusive? Used in the way described (at trot for 5-8 minutes in each direction) and correctly adjusted for the individual horse, are stretchies actively bad for the horse? (I think I’m probably missing important context here… sorry)

[Lunabear1988]

Maybe it depends on the area? I’m not in an area that’s super competitive for Dressage and I’m not big on competing.

That being said I’ve ridden with 9 local Dressage trainers in the area, over gosh 17 years. From low level to GP riders and judges. ( And no I don’t trainer hop, trainers move barns and areas a lot. And barns have been sold).I was working student for two of them.

I’ve NEVER been asked to anything abusive or wrong imo. No stretchies, draw reins, excessive whip use (definitely no hitting.) Just normal training and riding. I know of one trainer that rides a little bit deeper than I would be comfortable with but that’s it. I never rode with her for that reason.

But just like most of the other disciplines, I wasn’t surprised to see abuse at the top level of the sport. Which is very sad to see.

[joiedevie99]

@RJC

For my education, why are these considered abusive? Used in the way described (at trot for 5-8 minutes in each direction) and correctly adjusted for the individual horse, are stretchies actively bad for the horse? (I think I’m probably missing important context here… sorry)

They feature in one of the Cesar Parra videos. I think the video is linked in a thread here.

Could they have a place if used in educated hands to strengthen the shoulders, maybe? I have no real world experience with them, so I’m not going to guess. From a theoretical view, I don’t think it should be desirable for dressage riders to create an exaggerated front leg without equivalent strength in the back and the hindquarters to carry it. Seems like it could create an impure gait.

[Laurierace]

I do think that some of what you say is true but I am now on my second full winter down in Wellington and we have the absolute best of the best trainers come to our farm every week and they are all wonderful. Not a crank and spank in the bunch. I am not a dressage person but I play one down here sort of like a “when in Rome” thing and I have been very pleasantly surprised. The wonderful trainers are out there, I am so blessed to have found one on my first attempt.

[Mardi1]

What surprised me about the Parra issue is that apparently no official USEF protests were filed against him by top tier, Olympic riders/coaches who witnessed his abusive behavior at recognized shows. Instead, they thought the way to stop it was to yell at him. It’s safe to say they were aware of his reputation, yet they chose not to take the action which would have stopped the abuse much sooner.

Following this first surprise, is the second surprise: the silence from those Olympic riders/coaches as to why they didn’t file a protest.

[luvmyhackney]

@RJC

For my education, why are these considered abusive? Used in the way described (at trot for 5-8 minutes in each direction) and correctly adjusted for the individual horse, are stretchies actively bad for the horse?

I’ve used stretchies and they are only a tool which can be mis-used easily. We used them for a 2-8 minute trot each direction to build muscle and range of motion. No different than exercise bands. No lateral work, no canter, used when jogging with no overcheck. They break easily if they are too short or horse steps on them.

I’ve also used them under a vet’s supervision when I had a horse that had a shoulder injury and limited range of motion.

[Lunabear1988]

I agree with you. On top of the wonderful dressage trainers that are local to me in Colorado, pretty much all of the bigger name clinicians have all been wonderful too. No abuse or gadgets.

That being said, I think the crank and spank stuff is geared towards a certain clientele too. I’m sure there’s absolutely some rich people that just want to see a horse with a lot expression and ohh and ahhh over it, however it’s done. Some people are just in it for the glamor not the horsemanship. Probably doesn’t apply to anybody on COTH.

[LilyandBaron]

My hope is the coverage of such awful things educates the clients that sometimes seem to believe “the horse is bad” or “you need a bigger spur” - both of which CAN be true, but many times reflect missing basics in the training.

I’m in an area with Saddlebreds now, and many of the barns have sound, happy, 20-30 year old “Academy” horses, so I’m not into bashing all of saddleseat. I do think it’s not true to the sport of dressage, though, and deceptive at best. To me, if a dressage trainer uses them, I’m running the other way.

[Laurierace]

As a race horse trainer it is hard to find the owners who don’t want to win at any cost and don’t want to take the time and money to do right by the horse at every step during their career so I am sure I limited my income level a bit by not taking on those types but I had plenty of owners who gave me their horse because that was exactly what they did not want. It all worked out, I had some wonderful clients and their wonderful horses and everyone was happy. You would like to think it’s a little easier to find those types when you aren’t talking about winning purse money but instead a cheap ribbon. I know there is money to be made in other ways with winning horses but still it’s peanuts compared to racing.

[atr]

Around here in the hinterlands, not exactly a hotbed of upper level dressage but yes, there is plenty of money floating around and some very nice horses, off the top of my head I can think of 3 trainers who I absolutely wouldn’t ride with under any circumstances, a middle range bunch who are either pleasantly ineffectual or psycho screamers, and maybe 4 or 5 who are really good at what they do, treat horses well, and whose clients actually have demonstrable success.

Whilst I’ve seen some who can be tougher than I’d like for my horse, I don’t think I’ve seen a clinician ever be actively abusive towards a horse in a clinic here. I have, however, seen very upper level judge clinicians on 2 occasions publicly go after the “bad pros” and tell them in no uncertain terms exactly what they thought about their behavior.

Was I surprised? No, not really. Disappointed it has taken so long for the whispers to be taken serious notice of, to be sure. But pleased that something is finally happening.

[Warmblood1]

What surprised me is that dressage is currently taking all of the heat WRT horse abuse. Earlier today I watched a video of western pleasure horses being shown under saddle with their heads near their knees and their noses almost touching the chest. Over bent in a way I rarely see in dressage but common place in the western pleasure show ring. In warm up, some riders were riding horses in draw reins only on a curb and had the horses even more over bent than in the ring, all while spurring away in harsh western spurs. I watched another video today of a western “trainer” on a very green 3 year old (maybe it’s 3rd ride) while using in a curb with direct rein and incredibly harsh hands. No snaffle, straight to curb, yanking and spurring by the 3rd ride. That was just today and many were supporting this abusive style of riding. Many were appalled, thankfully.

I think horse abuse is rampant but I do not believe dressage to be the anti-christ or even the worst place one could look. I’ve been a student of dressage since I was a child. I’ve had many dressage trainers and I can honestly say that the majority of the abuse I’ve seen has not been in a dressage barn. I do not know any dressage trainers who tie their horse’s head to their side or tie them with their head hung high over night so the horse will be too exhausted to pick its head up the next day. Yes, we absolutely need to address the things wrong with dressage and I am absolutely not saying abuse doesn’t exist in the land of dressage but I hope it is understood by the general public that horse abuse is not specifically rampant in dressage, it’s everywhere. It worries me that dressage is automatically establishing a certain reputation when we need to be evaluating horse training as a whole.

[netg]

I think locally I see things constantly improving, and trainers looking to continue to do so, and choosing to bring in the trainers who are outspoken about what is correct and how to do the best for the horses.

I used to know a trainer who was horrific, and generally watched heavily by TDs for a reason to be eliminated. I haven’t kept up with that trainer, but at least one client of that trainer is currently in Wellington; I believe I saw that rider on their horse (not showing) when I was there in late January. A friend and I saw one rider as particularly horrific, and later I found that the person I think it was rides with this trainer. I know of nothing like the Parra horrors, but very forceful with the riding where the horses become nearly impossible to ride for anyone but the VERY physically strong. No education on contact, just forcefully pulled into a frame and kicked on.

I would like to see more emphasis on correct from judging, less on complete submission with BTV forgiven. I greatly appreciate the judges who have called me out any time I went BTV or pulled too much, had tension, etc. Locally, I see a LOT of judges with emphasis on correct, either riding or scribing for them. I’d like to see the international rings with more of the same focus. The really bad ones are no surprise to me, but there is a lot of training which helps win, but isn’t abusive, yet also not in the best interest of the horse. That’s the riding which will take shifts in judging emphasis to fix, and which is less spectacular than the horrible abuse we’ve seen.

Absolutely other disciplines have abuse and riding styles which don’t benefit the horse. It’s dressage which claims to help horses, and therefore makes sense we’d get criticized!

[Lunabear1988]

I totally agree. I think if anything, the majority of dressage people care more about their horses. I’ve been told that by many vets and body workers. It’s more shocking because it isn’t mainstream. The average COTH dressage person isn’t in barns with abuse going on, imo. But it needs to be stopped across the board.

[Cowgirl]

I think it’s a trap to make statements comparing the abuse in dressage to abuse in other horse disciplines. Yes, there is abuse in other disciplines, but even if it is worse than what you generally see in dressage, it doesn’t make the abuse in dressage dismissable. I think you need to clean up your own house before you compare it to the mess in other houses, otherwise you justify leaving yours a little messy. No abuse is acceptable. There is no excuse for the lack of redress for horse abuse in this sport.

Because we don’t have a licensing system for trainers and coaches in the US, you will see alot of unqualified trainers hanging their shingle as “FEI Trainers” even though they’ve never ridden to that level. You will see these trainers learning their craft by experimenting on other people’s horses. The phrase “abuse begins where knowledge ends” often comes to play here. I have seen trainers use auxiliary reins and devices, harsh bits, over aiding, overriding, no warmup, no cool down, riding lame horses, and outright instances of abuse (although the outright instances are rare). I have also seen a few of these trainers come up through the ranks, get education from the right people, and become qualified. But many of these trainers who eventually do get make it to the FEI levels, do so on a horse that someone else trained. It is exceedingly rare to find trainers who have trained horses all the way up themselves and develop enough patience for that process.