I am hoping to try western dressage this year. A friend of mine is letting me try her saddle, which got me thinking about girths. My horse has a very forward girth groove and regular girths tend to pull the saddle forward on to her shoulders. I have to use an anatomical girth with my dressage saddle. Is there such a thing as an anatomical western girth? What would be the best girth for this situation?
Western saddles can be made with several ways to attach the cinch to the saddle.
Look for saddles that let you put the front cinch further back.
This is an article on western saddle rigging:
http://horseandrider.com/article/saddle-rigging-13181
Many standard string cinches, unlike leather girths on English saddles, will fold/bunch a bit if they are hitting the elbow groove too forward.
That helps keeping the pressure off that spot.
OP, the question you’re asking is kind of asking us to compare apples and oranges. (BTW, western saddles have cinches, not girths.)
I suggest that you do a search for “western saddle rigging” and “western saddle fitting” to better understand how the western saddle should fit. The key is going to be how well the saddle fits and how it is rigged, and you can’t really influence that by using some different type of cinch.
Also, be sure to place that western saddle back far enough. Many people make the mistake of placing it too far forward, then locking it into that position with abreast collar
You don’t place saddle for some ‘girth groove’, but based on the shoulder blades
The saddle will find the ‘pocket’
Horses have shoulder blades, but I never heard of a girth groove, so can someone clarify?
Looked it up, and seems to be an English thing, as I never heard of positioning a western saddle based on girth groove, but rather on fit, including slope of shoulder blades, with the saddle finding that ‘pocket’ rather than forced into some position, and this can be aided by both fit and rigging, but not by any special girth
Here is a link that shows placement and also girth rigging
http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/tree-and-saddle-fitting/proper-position-of-a-western-saddle/
This link is very good, as it shows the skeletal system, and saddle position to it
http://www.horsesaddleshop.com/saddle-fitting-guide.html#.VLVBy8nzNRo
I have a horse with a very forward girth groove too. It doesn’t seem to be an issue for most of the stock breeds, and it’s hard to find western people that even know what the problem is.
There isn’t a good solution for western saddles. Putting the cinch further back makes the problem 100x worse, as the cinch works forward as you ride anyway and takes the saddle with it.
The best solution I’ve come across so far is to use a full rigged saddle, as that has the most forward rigging. And even then my life would be much easier if someone would make an anatomical cinch styled after the anatomical dressage girths.
Center-fire rigging on saddles made for center-fire rigging also works, but you’re mostly only going to find that on endurance saddles and antiques/reproductions. Western saddles jury-rigged to take center-fire have all been disappointments for me - the pull on the saddle isn’t the same as it is when the rigging is made and angled with center-fire position in mind.
You do not want a girth type to arbitrarily hold a saddle in a preconceived position, but rather on position as to relationship with shoulder blades
Choices of cinch type can be decided afterwards
Here is info that needs to be put into consideration:
Print Page
The Proper Position of a Western saddle
The first of the 3 Ps in our Principles of saddle fit is Position. The shape of the tree is designed to match the shape of the horse’s back when it is sitting in the proper place. If the saddle is sitting in another position on the back, the shapes will no longer match. If the shapes don’t match, you will have high pressure spots (Poking - Principle #2) and places where there is no contact to help distribute the Pressure (Principle #3). This means that most of what the saddle and tree makers do to ensure proper fit for the horse is thrown out the window when the rider places and holds the saddle in the wrong position.
So where is the proper place?
Position_1_correct.jpgA western saddle tree is designed to fit right behind the shoulder blades of the horse in what is often called the “wither pocket” area. To a lot of people, this appears to be too far back, but that is only because they are used to seeing malpositioned saddles. Unfortunately, positioning the saddle according to rigging position so the cinch hangs vertical fairly close behind the elbow is a very common practice. This often puts the saddle too far forward with the bar on the shoulder blade itself, but since it “looks right” to people used to seeing saddles positioned that way, they tighten the breast collar to hold it in what they think is the “right place” - and in doing so harm their horse.
What happens if you put it in the wrong spot?
While it is ideal to place the saddle in the correct spot right at the beginning, do you have to be worried if the saddle is an inch or two forward or back of the ideal? Not if you just put it there, cinch up and ride. Because, just like matching teaspoons which always slide into place where the shapes match best, a tree will move to where it is supposed to be - where the shapes match - within a few minutes. That is, unless it is held out of place by a breast collar, crupper or britching. When that happens (and it is very, very common) real damage occurs to the horse. Only if the saddle is placed so far forward that it is easier to slide forward than backward will misplacement by itself cause problems. However, if there is no place the shapes match very well because the saddle really doesn’t fit the horse at all, then it won’t move to the correct spot.
I think my question is being misunderstood. Saddles on her naturally want to sit several inches further back than where the girth naturally wants to sit. Even when I do the girth up further back it naturally wants to migrate forward and pulls the saddle up along with it.
[QUOTE=gaitedincali;7955578]
I have a horse with a very forward girth groove too. It doesn’t seem to be an issue for most of the stock breeds, and it’s hard to find western people that even know what the problem is.
There isn’t a good solution for western saddles. Putting the cinch further back makes the problem 100x worse, as the cinch works forward as you ride anyway and takes the saddle with it.
The best solution I’ve come across so far is to use a full rigged saddle, as that has the most forward rigging. And even then my life would be much easier if someone would make an anatomical cinch styled after the anatomical dressage girths.
Center-fire rigging on saddles made for center-fire rigging also works, but you’re mostly only going to find that on endurance saddles and antiques/reproductions. Western saddles jury-rigged to take center-fire have all been disappointments for me - the pull on the saddle isn’t the same as it is when the rigging is made and angled with center-fire position in mind.[/QUOTE]
Oh yay, glad somebody understand my pain! I did FINALLY find a set up that works for my english saddles, but I really want to try western dressage with my girl and maybe do some open shows this year as our local dressage association is losing 4 of the major shows due to people moving and retiring. 
Don’t use just the front cinch, don’t tighten it up so far that it pulls anything. They should be snug, not tight.
Double rigging used properly (ie, with a snug rear cinch) is the best solution for a forward girth groove. My wife’s Arab is horrible to fit with a dressage saddle for that reason, but easy to fit with a western saddle.
If you’re trying to tighten it so that the saddle won’t turn and you’re dealing with a forward girth groove, you’re going to end up with a wandering saddle (ESPECIALLY if the latigo isn’t vertical, which it doesn’t have to be). OTOH, if the tree fits, it won’t move fore or back even with no cinch at all.
Article that might help: http://www.artcords.com/public/110823Cinch_Fit.pdf
[QUOTE=aktill;7955737]
Don’t use just the front cinch, don’t tighten it up so far that it pulls anything. They should be snug, not tight.
Double rigging used properly (ie, with a snug rear cinch) is the best solution for a forward girth groove. My wife’s Arab is horrible to fit with a dressage saddle for that reason, but easy to fit with a western saddle.
If you’re trying to tighten it so that the saddle won’t turn and you’re dealing with a forward girth groove, you’re going to end up with a wandering saddle (ESPECIALLY if the latigo isn’t vertical, which it doesn’t have to be). OTOH, if the tree fits, it won’t move fore or back even with no cinch at all.
Article that might help: http://www.artcords.com/public/110823Cinch_Fit.pdf[/QUOTE]
That.
Well fitting western saddles tend to fit like a glove.
Long, long ago, one of our horses was world ch calf roping horse, so very good at it.
He was being roped off at this one rodeo when, just as the rope tighten, the off latigo broke and the front chinch just hung down there.
Every time the horse backed to pull the rope tight, the saddle would put all the pressure on the back cinch and make him take a jump forward.
Another horse may have started bucking, but he was a professional and knew his job, no matter what the distraction, so he kept taking a jump up, then backing to keep the slack out of the rope, which put all the pressure on his flank and again made him hop forward.
By then the roper, that didn’t know why the horse was doing that, had the calf tied and the horse could pull up and give slack.
As the story went, there were some very large offers on that horse that day.
That to show that a well fitting saddle tends to stay where put, although having all the right cinches snug, in the right place and on the best horse sure helps.
OP, if you have the right western saddle for your horse, you may just not have a problem with it staying where it needs to be.
In general western saddles fit my horse better, and she actually seems to move just a little bit better in them. Too bad she is such a forward moving horse that loves to jump! :lol:
[QUOTE=Draftmare;7955799]
In general western saddles fit my horse better, and she actually seems to move just a little bit better in them. Too bad she is such a forward moving horse that loves to jump! :lol:[/QUOTE]
I agree, I prefer my English saddle way over any western one and use it when I can, but I have also noticed that horses really like western saddles better, maybe because they distribute our weight better, especially as they move.
They put less pressure per inch in any one place, compared with English saddles.
I feeling pretty excited about this new adventure. I have been digging out my old mare’s western tack and cleaning it all morning. I will say I now know why western riders don’t regularly clean their saddle pads. :eek: My bathroom is now a hairy wet mess. It will remain to be seen if any of this stuff will actually fit her. I had to buy all new bridles and bits when I first got her. Thankfully I already had adjustable gullet english saddles and they had generally the same back shape. I also find that a well made western saddle is much easier on my hips, back, and knees than a comparable english saddle. I really am a cowgirl at heart. 
i guess English, you look for that girth groove?
Western, you want that tree to fit the horse and thus the shoulder has to be able to move freely.
I only use a back cinch when riding with my work saddles, as my balance ride never has that back cinch removed
My show saddle does not have a back cinch, as that is not seen in rail, equitation, or trail classes where I show
Esp in the mountains, I have that back cinch done up tight. It will prevent that slight back and forth motion over the loins, even with the best fitting saddle, that can sore a horse. Outfitters will tell you that if you ride in the mountains, and ride with one loose cinch, make it your front one!
A western treed saddle that fits well, will find that pocket, as described in the link. I thus first err in setting my saddle a bit too far back than too far forward, and don’t do it up tight. I then ride a little ways and if it moves forward, because I didn’t have it quite in the pocket, i just get off and tighten it
I don’t jump, except logs , and other trail obstacles, thus I prefer riding in my western saddle over my Stubbin-but that is familiarity and practicality.
I can use pommel bags, good size saddle bags, , tie on a slicker, etc
I have started many colts with it, ridden countless tough mountain miles with it, on various horses, and still use it as my regular everyday saddle. It is 35 years old at least, still in great shape
Never sored a horse , using it, even riding long days in rough country
It does have very close contact and free leg movement
Good luck , hope tack fits, and enjoy cleaning tack-want some more to clean?
Wait, are you saying that you don’t use a front cinch at all? :eek: That sounds scary!
I actually don’t mind cleaning tack, there is something about taking a grungy looking piece of tack and making it look nice again that I enjoy. If I end up getting my friend’s saddle it is getting a deep cleaning too!
BTW, one of the reasons your saddles with the single-converted double rigging didn’t work may have been the width of the cinch. Quite a few folks with (true) centerfire rigged saddles say they only work with WIDE cinches, rather than the narrow modern ones.
I made up a cinch that was a little over 9" wide, and this worked fine even on Captain Rain Barrel here:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/IMG_2925.JPG
[QUOTE=aktill;7956063]
BTW, one of the reasons your saddles with the single-converted double rigging didn’t work may have been the width of the cinch. Quite a few folks with (true) centerfire rigged saddles say they only work with WIDE cinches, rather than the narrow modern ones.
I made up a cinch that was a little over 9" wide, and this worked fine even on Captain Rain Barrel here:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/IMG_2925.JPG[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure if this was directed at me, but I did do my basic research. Wide cinch, packing cinch, still not as good as a true center-fire saddle.
The full-rigging is working the best. I of course ride that saddle with a back cinch, kept snug, and the saddle fits well. The horse is just built weird. He’s the second one of similar breeding I’ve had this issue with.
Before I came across these two I probably would have assumed this was an easy fix too. :lol:
Can’t say that’s been my experience. If you’re careful to keep the tension equal, there’s no difference…it’s a demonstrable physics question.
Now, if you start out with a 7/8 or 5/8 double rig that isn’t going to be the same as centerfire…you have to start out with a full rig. Anything less than that will end up being behind centrefire.
Likewise, if you don’t put the cinch pin through both “fore” and “aft” latigo sections, it’ll tend to drift as well.
A true centerfire rig is less of a PIA to get the tension equal (why I’m building one), but the net result is the same when you balance out the force reactions.
I just bid on a pretty wide mohair girth on eBay.
[QUOTE=Draft
[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/balanceridesaddle2.jpg)
(I have not done final adjustment of back cinch, just took pic for someone that wanted to see the balance ride close contact
![[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/BRoffside_zps105ee42f.jpg)](http://s335.photobucket.com/user/KiloBright/media/BRoffside_zps105ee42f.jpg.html){kind=link}
![[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/balanceridesaddle2.jpg)](http://s335.photobucket.com/user/KiloBright/media/balanceridesaddle2.jpg.html){kind=link}