Western New York Equine Lawyer?

[ASB_Stars]

@MHM

How do you differentiate between rescuing them from slaughter, and outbidding a kill buyer at an auction? That seems like a pretty fine line.

I would certainly be interested to hear more about the exact chain of events regarding how the horses were removed from the property, and by whom, and under what legal authority. That’s the part that sounds very questionable to me.

I don’t know any of the parties involved, but I would certainly be concerned if somebody can just stroll on to a property and remove the horses without legal authorization, and then face no repercussions.

That, for me, is the crux of the issue. The tangent here has gone to whether it was right or wrong that she had the horses, etc. My point, in starting thread, was to ask the question, and see if there was someone with a law degree who could untangle this, and help the owner.

It is a fine line. However, kill buyers are at damn near every sale in this country. So, if you buy a horse at a sale, and there is a kill buyer present, does that make any sale a possible kill sale?

OTOH, if a rescue takes a horse from a person, and there has been no charge of animal cruelty, neglect, etc. is that horse a rescue?

[ASB_Stars]

@Kr

Ty. I absolutely have the horses interest first…I have already received threatening messages from people involved. So I absolutely will not disclose info regarding the horses. And FYI I did buy these horses along with donors. I put my own money into the rescue every day and did so at that auction. And the horse you refer to as tomcat breeding was bought privately not by my rescue, so get your facts right.

I think that this statement, regarding putting her own funds in with donor funds can be confusing. I understand that a rescue cannot co-mingle funds, but I am not sure how she handles this to stay on the right side of it. It has to be a challenge.

[fordtraktor]

She was living there with her “boyfriend”/partner for at least 3 years. The farm went into foreclosure during that entire time and was foreclosed upon. She either can’t or chose not to pay $4500 to stay her eviction. Rent/expenses or board for 40 horses isn’t going to run less per month.

If you were a farm owner, would you rent to her? Board her horses? I try to make sound financial decisions so that I don’t end up in bad situations, so I wouldn’t.

[fordtraktor]

The court ordered the horse owner to pay $4500 into escrow to stay the eviction until after the appeal. The horse owner did not pay it.

It would go into the court’s funds and likely be used to pay the person caring for the horses, but it isn’t explicit, nor does it need to be. It is there to ensure she didn’t run up a huge bill she would never be able to pay and that then the state would have to pay. Pretty standard.

[fordtraktor]

No one asked if the horses were registered to the rescue, they asked who owned them. In the United States, registration papers are not proof of ownership. This is true in every state. The registration papers will be in the name of whomever last owned them before a transfer was filed with the registry. I own a horse I never bothered transferring into my name because she doesn’t do breed shows.

[fordtraktor]

It’s a matter of accounting. Do you own a business? Nonprofit organization or not, you can infuse your own money into your business as long as it is accurately reflected in your business records. Because I own a boarding business and also have a “real” job, when I want to do capital improvements on my farm, I transfer money from my personal account to my business account. If someone wants to donate to their own nonprofit, it’s fine as long as you record it properly.

[fordtraktor]

I looked at the case law…it isn’t that 30 days is required by any statute, but 30 days has been interpreted by courts to constitute a “reasonable” period so it’s safe to use that as a relevant time period to hold, so that it will be upheld by a court of appeals. Some cases have found shorter times to be reasonable too, but 30 days seems solid precedent.

[SummerRose]

Thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to look it up.

[Angela_Freda]

@ASB_Stars

OTOH, if a rescue takes a horse from a person, and there has been no charge of animal cruelty*, neglect, etc. is that horse a rescue?

Or the horse owner simply relinquishes the horse, if they are elderly entering a nursing home, or ill and going into hospice.

[Angela_Freda]

@fordtraktor

The court ordered the horse owner to pay $4500 into escrow to stay the eviction until after the appeal. The horse owner did not pay it.

It would go into the court’s funds and likely be used to pay the person caring for the horses

Wait what do you mean pay the person caring for the horses.
If she paid the $4500 that meant the eviction wasn’t going forward until her appeal.
So the horses would stay put, and she would care for them herself as she had been, no?

[ASB_Stars]

@fordtraktor

No one asked if the horses were registered to the rescue, they asked who owned them. In the United States, registration papers are not proof of ownership. This is true in every state. The registration papers will be in the name of whomever last owned them before a transfer was filed with the registry. I own a horse I never bothered transferring into my name because she doesn’t do breed shows.

For the American Saddlebred Horse Association, the person who is on the horse’s papers owns the horse. In order to show a registered American Saddlebred at USEF shows as owner, you need the horse transferred into your name. If you breed a mare, the resulting foal is shown as being bred by the person on the registration papers. They also own the foal. hey can transfer the foal immediately, but they will show up as the first owner.

[fordtraktor]

But that doesn’t mean the horse is LEGALLY owned by the person on the registration papers. It is established precedent that the registration papers do NOT indicate legal ownership in the US.

[ASB_Stars]

@fordtraktor

It’s a matter of accounting. Do you own a business? Nonprofit organization or not, you can infuse your own money into your business as long as it is accurately reflected in your business records. Because I own a boarding business and also have a “real” job, when I want to do capital improvements on my farm, I transfer money from my personal account to my business account. If someone wants to donate to their own nonprofit, it’s fine as long as you record it properly.

Which I do not deny. I said that it can be confusing, because, let’s face it, it is. I also said that it was important to not “co-mingle” funds. That is also true. You always need a correct paper trail on what’s going in and out.

[ASB_Stars]

@fordtraktor

But that doesn’t mean the horse is LEGALLY owned by the person on the registration papers. It is established precedent that the registration papers do NOT indicate legal ownership in the US.

For the ASHA, unless you sign a transfer, it’s still your horse. That may not be the law, but it’s the rule.

[fordtraktor]

Based on the documents quoted above it’s not going for horse care but was intended for back rent/rent going forward to September. I thought it might be for their care since she was gone.

Yes, she would have been allowed to stay if she had paid the $4500, at least through September.

Keep in mind, these horses are abandoned property post-eviction. This is not an abuse case, no matter how bad the horses look.

[fordtraktor]

It doesn’t matter. I have a QH that the listed owner on her papers is 3 owners ago. I have a signed transfer that isn’t filled out. She does a different discipline so no one has ever bothered to transfer the papers. All that means is that she can’t show AQHA unless I transfer the papers. Legally, I absolutely own the horse and have a bill of sale for her purchase.

[MHM]

@ASB_Stars

So, if you buy a horse at a sale, and there is a kill buyer present, does that make any sale a possible kill sale?

As a practical matter, it probably depends on how much the horse goes for in the end. If it’s a useful horse that goes for a price beyond what a kill buyer would be willing to pay, then maybe it does not count as a rescue.

But again, probably a fine line, depending on the circumstances.

[fordtraktor]

To add—randomly I had an issue with this and USEF last year. I had a bill of sale and USEF transfer signed by the seller.

When I went to my first USEF show with the horse, it turned out that the seller’s father, then deceased, was listed as the USEF owner so the transfer wasn’t valid.

There is a procedure for that…I had to go to a local town, find a notary, and provide Bill of Sale and an attestation about the situation before the notary. Emailed to USEF, they transferred the horse and I was able to show him hours later.

[ASB_Stars]

@fordtraktor

It doesn’t matter. I have a QH that the listed owner on her papers is 3 owners ago. I have a signed transfer that isn’t filled out. She does a different discipline so no one has ever bothered to transfer the papers. All that means is that she can’t show AQHA unless I transfer the papers. Legally, I absolutely own the horse and have a bill of sale for her purchase.

The ASHA is primarily concerned with show ring ASB- and so, this how they operate. Their registry, their rules.

[fordtraktor]

Yes, I am just saying that when it comes to legal ownership, association/breed registry listed owner is not considered dispositive in the US. This is a very well litigated issue. Whatever the reg papers say, the legal ownership can be very different. Someone asked who owned the horses…you replied what the Saddlebred registry was listed as, but that is irrelevant to who actually owns.