Western Riders/Trainers - Need assistance please.

[msrobin]

Ok, I purchased a horse, well saved a horse at the auction. He was saddled, but not ridden as the owner said the girth broke when he tightened it. He left the saddle on to show he would take a saddle.
Well I was told that he was used as a cow horse, roping, rounding up cows in a large pasture etc. I just wanted him away from there so I took him home.

So using a western saddle and bridle I got on him today, he throws his head up and hasn’t a clue what neck reining is or what direct reining is. (figures) Anyway, he is fine to get on, but when riding he acts like a newly broken green horse. I have broke horses for 20 years and they are better than this. Which makes me believe he isn’t a roping or cow horse.
So my question is could it be that he hates bits? I used a standard western curb (exactly like this one - http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/images/curb_bit.gif) and then switched to an english jointed hollow mouth eggbutt bit. He was better with the eggbutt, but still didn’t like it. The vet has looked at his teeth and they are fine.
Should I go purchase a hackamore? I am wondering if he was ridden in a hackamore and maybe that is the problem. I am not keen on western training which is why I am asking about what to do.
Obviously the man who sold him was a dealer and more than likely had no clue what he was talking about. I am thinking he was full of horse manure at this point :lol:

Oh he is 13 years old and a Mustang (not blm). As a jumper and dressage rider he is a bit different then what I am used to. I honestly hate riding western :lol: And he is so wide backed and round my english saddles do not fit him.

I honestly believe that even if he was a cow/roping horse he wouldn’t act like this even if he didn’t like the bit.

I welcome your ideas.

[starrunner]

I would be tempted to still borrow a hackamore, but roping horse acting that way…maybe not.

But he could still be broke.

I’ve ridden several horses that had never (or very rarely) been bitted and acted like quite the fruity idiots in a bit, but did w/t/c/whoa very well in the hackamore.

Worth a shot, IMO.

It could also be eons since his teeth have been done as well and maybe an extreme reaction to that? I had a palomino mare I restarted that was an absolute idiot until her teeth were done. She was theoretically used as a kid’s horse, but was a bucking/rearing idiot without any pressure on the reins. Once her teeth were done, she was quite a bit better, but obviously not quite the kid safe mount she was said to be.

[msrobin]

I agree about the teeth which is why I had them checked out. It has been about 6 months since it was done. I just got around to having some time to work with him.

[Melelio]

Alot of roping horses (I think most) are ridden in a fairly tight tiedown so they have something to leverage against when stopping and holding the cow…Maybe he just can’t deal with a bit without a tiedown?

I think simply retraining him as if he were a baby, and doing it English you may have a nice horse…give it a try!

[Go_Fish]

Well, most rope horses are ridden with a tie-down and noseband (similar to an English cavasson). The tie-down attaches to a ring at the botton of the noseband. However, this get-up is not used to keep the horse’s head down. It’s used for the horse to brace against once the cow’s roped and is struggling to get away.

Rope horses are broke - maybe not like what you’re used to - but they move very well off a leg, go forward in a heartbeat and stop well. They may not steer as well as a reining horse, but they generally turn quite well.

It sounds like someone was bull*@#!ing you. Is the horse (being a mustang) small? It’s hard to rope and hold a steer with a small horse.

[CHT]

If he was well broke then they likely would have just got on bareback to increase the bidding…or borrowed a cinch. “The girth broke” sounds like a very odd excuse.

He may have been just a farm horse…so not a roping horse like you think of for competition, just a horse that moves their own cows and may rope a calf from time to time. He may be very roughly/simply trained.

May also have an injury that is making him seem untrained/unwilling. A damaged neck for example, may make him reluctant to listen to rein aids.

I would go back to square one, and see where you get.

[coloredcowhorse]

You may find he works in a bosal (very different from a mechanical hackamore) or in a hackamore or in a pretty plain snaffle bit (lots of western horses never go beyond the snaffle for basic work/riding). He may also be broke to NO bit pressure and mostly leg/weight cues and just laying the rein against his neck without putting any pressure on the bit. Or he may not be trained at all. I agree that a broken cinch for an excuse for not riding him sounds like BS…there are always a dozen or so other folks around that can pull one off their saddle or who have an extra saddle that could be used within a couple minutes at most.

FYI…not all mustangs (incl BLMs) are smaller horses…when ranchers were turning out Army Remount stallions or their own ranch stallions there was some pretty decent blood added to many of the herds. And here in NV when the mines went to steam engines rather than horse power there were draft horses also turned out…friend of mine has a 15.2, 1450 lb gelding that is a BLM mustang and looks to be probably 1/4 to 1/2 draft…black, rounded butt, sabino markings, roman nose and legs with feathering and heavy bone, big drafty type feet as well and a thicker neck and straighter shoulder than most of the mustangs…he screams draft background.

[Beverley]

Question: Are you attempting to ride him on contact or off contact? Because if the former, he could be well broke but for a western horse, that means, no contact for the most part. This could also explain neck reining and direct rein confusion. So- try getting on and keeping reins loose, just working off seat and legs and see what happens. (And by seat, I don’t mean English seat- sit back on those blue jean pockets).

And if he was trained the way many are, cluck means trot, kissing sound means lope. IOW- the buttons on a working cow pony are very different from the buttons you might be used to on jumpers or dressage horses.

[sahqueen]

How tight or loose was the curb chain? Some horses are very sensitive to a chain that is too tight, and some need the pressure of a tighter chain to feel comfortable.

I would also try different curb bits…I have never seen a horse go will in the bit you pictured. That type of bit offers no ablity to provide subtle cues…Find something with loose/moveable shanks so that you can work each side of the mouth. Also many horses like some sort of movement in the mouthpiece…whether it be a broken mouthpiece, a roller, etc.

Rope horses are typically ridden with a tie down as mentioned…not to keep their heads down, but to provide something to brace against and help with balance while roping…just like a properly adjusted martingale on a hunter. Many go in some type of hackmore or combination bit…without knowing what he was actually working in it can be a long process to find what he is comfortable in.

He might not know how to neck rein all that well…he might work off of leg and seat rather than reins.

Good luck in finding what works for him!

[HeartsongHorses]

[QUOTE=Beverley;5319314]
Question: Are you attempting to ride him on contact or off contact? Because if the former, he could be well broke but for a western horse, that means, no contact for the most part. This could also explain neck reining and direct rein confusion. So- try getting on and keeping reins loose, just working off seat and legs and see what happens. (And by seat, I don’t mean English seat- sit back on those blue jean pockets).

And if he was trained the way many are, cluck means trot, kissing sound means lope. IOW- the buttons on a working cow pony are very different from the buttons you might be used to on jumpers or dressage horses.[/QUOTE]

This. The cues are very different for Western. Try keeping your legs off of him unless you are asking for a turn. Do you have a friend who rides Western who could hop on for a spin?

This bit you have chosen is a nice mild one and just fine to tell if he goes in a curb. Make sure there is a couple of finger widths between the curb chain and his chin. Horses who go in curb bits go with loose reins, no contact unless you are asking for something. If you try one of the jointed curbs you will want to use even less contact.

I would guess this horse isn’t truly well broke though. I agree with the others who said that if he were they would have hopped up bareback or borrowed a cinch or saddle in order to get a better price.

I would restart him English if I were you. It’s what you know and then only one of you will be learning new cues. :yes:

[msrobin]

I really appreciate all of the information. He is 15 hands and is not a bulldog built Mustang like the QH are. I do not believe he roped in competition and probably as some of you suggest he was used as an on the farm horse is probably more likely.
I have have used both contact and no contact to see what works. Neither do. I am going to get a tie down and give that a shot, along with a hackamore. My tack store is great and I can bring it back if it doesn’t work.

I can say that weight changes and leg pressure doesn’t work either.

[Beverley]

Then, yeah, sounds like he may or may not have been ridden a little bit but spent most of his time as a pasture potato. You might just want to start all over and train him ‘your’ way- an older restart can take a little longer since who knows who tried to teach what- but you could still end up with something decent!

[Fillabeana]

My vote is for not actually broke at all.
There are absolutely some western horses that are ‘trained’ in some very strange ways, but most will take direct rein cues in a simple snaffle, since most are broke/started in one.
And a horse used to a tie-down can be really lost without one. They are unfortunately adjusted really tight (much tighter than a standing martingale) and so are unsafe to ride in outside an arena in uneven footing.

[EquineImagined]

I’d agree with most of this, whatever training (if any, auctions should have signs that say “Bidder beware the unscrupulous traders”) he had was full of holes. Better to take him back to square one and treat it as if he had no training at all. The one gelding I’m working here, I was told he was started as a 2yo and ridden around the farm. By the time I got my hands on him, either the training didn’t stick and was therefore useless, or by ‘rode around the farm’ they meant someone climbed on board and was lead around.

It was a little more difficult restarthing him at 8, but it’s been well worth it and every day I’m thankful I did it.

Good luck with your guy! Mustangs are smart, but in my experience you have to earn what they give you even from a domestic bred, which can make it more frustrating at times but the pay out is amazing. Keep updates coming.

[Luv2Trail]

WOW - I COULD HAVE WRITTEN THIS THREAD - I AM HAVING THE SAME, IDENTICAL PROBLEM WITH MY NEW MARE - supposedly a former Cutting (& roping??) horse. What worthwhile information from the people that posted! Wish I could have read this last October!! Thank you for the post and thanks to all the people that responded!
I tried ALL kinds of bits - I had a Myler black steel seven shank with sweet iron low port “comfort” snaffle - she seems to go well in it. I accidentally discovered if I sit “deep” in the saddle and STAY OUT of her mouth, she will respond nicely. Get in her mouth and she’ll tense her neck and that head come up like she is expecting pain. She has VERY well developed muscles on each side of her neck - thanks to the posts I now think I know why! I was thinking it was because someone VERY heavy- handed stayed in her mouth every moment. Now I honestly wonder if she was worked in a tie down?? I have a Little S “bit” but it doesn’t have a lot of WHOA. Might try it. She is a very nice mare and I like her. I just want to understand her and thanks to you all, I am closer to understanding her than I’ve been, for sure!
Best of luck to you, msrobin! I hope you will keep us posted on your progress with your Mustang!

[katarine]

He don’t know nothin’. If you move your hand up his crest from the horn, over his mane,cock it to the L and cluck and nothing happens, he don’t kjnow…nothin’

[Beverley]

@Luv2Trail;5321809

Get in her mouth and she’ll tense her neck and that head come up like she is expecting pain. She has VERY well developed muscles on each side of her neck - thanks to the posts I now think I know why! I was thinking it was because someone VERY heavy- handed stayed in her mouth every moment.

Actually, no, tensing up when contact is established is not necessarily, or even usually, a result of prior bad riding or expectation of pain. A good ‘using’ horse, when contact is established, gets on its toes and ready to fire the rockets to go rope or chase something down or round the barrels or whatever, at speed. Off contact = relax, you might still be moving at speed, but you (the horse) are simply expected to move along at that speed doing nothing special, just covering ground.

Well developed muscles are probably just a function of qh bloodlines.