What is the difference in the performance of a wood tree vs. a non-wood tree? What are the types of non-wood trees (plastic or ??) and are they something to stay away from? My saddle fitter said she didn’t like flex trees - is that what all non-wood trees are, or is that something new on the market?
Rawhide covered wood trees are the gold standard.
For some decades now there have been different kinds of fiberglass covered wood trees and all fiberglass trees also.
The possible problems with all fiberglass is that the plastic degrades with heat and cold and can change shape over time.
Flex trees are something different than standard one piece ones and a few manufacturers make their own versions.
Ralide makes a fairly low-quality plastic tree, and lots of saddles are made on them. All the fasteners used to make the saddles really add a lot of weak spots.
Laporte makes “poly-tuff” cable-rigged trees which are polymer but are getting good reviews by working folks. They also make a carbon fibre tree.
Flex trees are well…not ideal:
http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/checking-out-a-flex-tree/
A good treemaker can make a nice, slightly lighter tree with fibreglass coating that should last plenty well if they use marine resin (boats hold up fine, obviously).
Rawhide covered wood with hardwood in the right places is definitely ideal, but the heaviest option.
Adam, thanks for the link to that blog - I’m finding many other articles that are interesting and shed light on some other questions I’ve had. I really think finding a good western saddle is harder than finding a good english saddle!!!
A side note, Pocket, if you are thinking about the weight of a good western saddle with wood/rawhide trees…
I really thought about this issue for my mother, who decided at the age of 66 that she wanted to be a re-rerider. She’s had a lot of very, very good instruction, a hip replacement, and some other things come up. But in all, she loves to ride, and the physical demand/challenge of saddling and riding have been her best source of physical therapy. Because she WANTS to do it, the strength training is not an annoyance or a strain, and she has become quite a lot stronger.
In fact, she’s saddled my husband’s big horse with the Billy Cook saddle she’s been using. It weighs plenty with its wood/rawhide roping tree. And the horse is 15.3 and STOUT, she’s about 5’3" or so…no small feat to swing the saddle up there.
The thing is, though, is that she has learned how to carry and swing the saddle properly. I’ve looked at a lot of videos on you-tube, and I have yet to find one of a saddle being swung up like it should be- people always manage to start with their saddle held in front of them like you’d hold an english saddle. Anyway, you use your whole body (legs, mostly) to start the swing and use the kinetic energy you create to elevate and place the saddle. It ‘weighs’ almost nothing in that swing, and it sets on the horse’s back nice and easy, no ‘Plop’ and no thwack of stirrups against the horse. But it does take some learning.
Mom still might reasonably go with a western saddle made to be extra light, such as cable rigging or a modified ‘strip saddle’ that has less leather on it, but of course she’s past her 70th birthday now.
And yes, a good western saddle is not easy to find, but it can be done with good help.
As Adam referred to, carbon fiber might be reasonable for a tree, but if you really do need a light saddle (some people do) you might just find an english one.
http://www.tomdorrance.com/
About three photos down, you will see Tom saddling a horse with a Passier saddle he used more than a little bit, as he got older.
I have more questions after reading the Nikkels’ blog posts. Ok, so I’ve read a bunch of posts about the angle of the tree at the shoulder, and the width of the gullet at the fork and how the shoulder moves and shoulder muscling, etc.
I looked at some pictures of a horse’s shoulder whereby the horse had pronounced hollows behind the shoulders. Rod indicated that this horse had been ridden in and english saddle and that he didn’t see a lot of this in a western saddle. If the angle of the tree at the shoulders (of the tree) is wider than that of the shoulders of the horse, is it possible that that extra “space” would allow for muscle to fill in that area where it was lacking? What kind of tree would he make for a horse whose muscling was like that? I mean, if he followed the contours of the current muscling, then that wouldn’t help the horse, would it? Would he purposefully make a tree a bit wider, or ???
I’ve got a custom saddle made on one of the Laporte cable-rigged trees and I love it.
I have a friend who used to be a saddlemaker and he was very skeptical about the polymer tree, so he actually called the guy I was going to order the saddle from to ask about it. They talked for about an hour, and afterward, my friend said, “I’m sold. Go ahead and order it.”
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7160706]
I have more questions after reading the Nikkels’ blog posts. Ok, so I’ve read a bunch of posts about the angle of the tree at the shoulder, and the width of the gullet at the fork and how the shoulder moves and shoulder muscling, etc.
I looked at some pictures of a horse’s shoulder whereby the horse had pronounced hollows behind the shoulders. Rod indicated that this horse had been ridden in and english saddle and that he didn’t see a lot of this in a western saddle. If the angle of the tree at the shoulders (of the tree) is wider than that of the shoulders of the horse, is it possible that that extra “space” would allow for muscle to fill in that area where it was lacking? What kind of tree would he make for a horse whose muscling was like that? I mean, if he followed the contours of the current muscling, then that wouldn’t help the horse, would it? Would he purposefully make a tree a bit wider, or ???[/QUOTE]
Hi Pocket Pony,
I am in no way a saddle fit expert. But I can share a brief anecdote on hollow shoulders. Earlier this spring my wife and I purchased a small AQHA mare to train over the summer. She came from a trainer who focuses on eventing, and she had some very hollow shoulders.
My wife and I both have McCall saddles with SQH bar trees. They fit all four of our horses. Including the little mare with hollow shoulders. The interesting thing was that her shoulders really filled in within the first month of training her. We focused a lot on getting her balanced and using her haunches, and the saddle fit must have allowed those shoulders to work more and fill out. The saddles still fit her and she’s doing great.
I know that doesn’t answer your question completely, but my guess would be that tree maker would want to design a tree around the size and shape that horse would be for the majority of its life. Horse backs change shape pretty often depending on work and time off. We recently had a 2+ week vacation and my 18 year old horse (who was quite fit when we left) definitely lost some back muscle in that time. His saddle still fit him nicely, and I just worked to bring him back slowly.
Loved your Neubert Clinic report, by the way. Thanks for sharing.
Most fiberglass trees are inferior to wooden ones, due to shorter and narrower bars and the fact that they don’t flex to conform to the horses back (the way a good quality wooden one will). Fiberglass trees (and most other synthetics), because they have a molded-in seat, tend to flex down so the seat is on the spine. They are made from molds, which means it’s difficult to have any variation to fit this-type of that-type of horse. Screws/nails seem to loosen or pull out of fiberglass/synthetics as well.
[QUOTE=brucekrausse;7166556]
Most fiberglass trees are inferior to wooden ones, due to shorter and narrower bars and the fact that they don’t flex to conform to the horses back (the way a good quality wooden one will). Fiberglass trees (and most other synthetics), because they have a molded-in seat, tend to flex down so the seat is on the spine. They are made from molds, which means it’s difficult to have any variation to fit this-type of that-type of horse. Screws/nails seem to loosen or pull out of fiberglass/synthetics as well.[/QUOTE]
It’s worth differentiating between all-fibreglass and fibreglass coated wood. The former is cheap and dangerous, and the latter can be good if the underlying wood is good. A wood cored tree won’t usually have a built-in groundseat.
Former: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=13861
Latter: It’s possible to save a couple of pounds going with a modern resin and cloth, assuming the person is qualified to work with it and the construction is sound. If it’s being done simply to save cost, it likely isn’t what I’m talking about. Fibreglass is more brittle than rawhide by several orders of magnitude, however.
Can’t say I buy the bit about wood trees flexing, however, though I’ve heard it a lot. I’ve handled a few bare trees, and have one at home, and the amount of force required to flex the bars would permanently damage the back of a horse.
Also, the shape of the bar is independent of what it’s made out of.
Lastly, don’t tar quite the whole lot of synthetics with the same brush. As I said above, the Laporte trees are getting very good reviews by working folks, and the material takes fasteners pretty well from all reports.
I’ve just been looking at the website for the Laporte synthetic tree, cable rigged saddles- which are lighter weight, but still appropriate for ‘real’ ranch work, roping, etc:
http://www.dhrss.com/saddles/custom-saddle.html
A ‘plain’ custom saddle (all roughout, all smooth/no tooling, or combo) starts at $2450 which ought to be in your budget.
You could talk to them, and find out if there was something you could ride in to try, as a start. They have a nice way to make a template from romex (or similar) wire for your horse’s back.
And by the way, these are NOT flex trees!
[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7168305]
I’ve just been looking at the website for the Laporte synthetic tree, cable rigged saddles- which are lighter weight, but still appropriate for ‘real’ ranch work, roping, etc:
http://www.dhrss.com/saddles/custom-saddle.html[/QUOTE]
That’s where I got my saddle. Mark is really nice and easy to work with. My saddle is wonderful. Fits me and the mule he made it for very well. The final price on mine was about $3,000. The only downside was that he was really busy when I ordered my saddle and it took a while to get it.
Interesting, I’ll look at that website!
I talked to Mark on the phone and I’m sending him some pictures. I’m intrigued by his system. NSP, how long did it take to get your saddle? Do you live nearby so that you could go in and try stuff in person? If not, how did you find the system of measuring and fitting? Did you ride in one of the trees during the process? How do you like the saddle now? Is there anything you’d do differently?
If I’m going to drop $3k on a saddle, this looks like a pretty good system.
I ordered the saddle in June and got it the following March/April. No, I don’t live nearby so we did everything via mail/e-mail/telephone. The mule I got the saddle for was at the trainers when I ordered it, so he helped me do the back tracings. And by “helped me” I mean I held the mule and he did everything else. I also had to do some measurements on myself - weight (I didn’t lie), height, inseam, and thigh circumference, I think.
There is nothing about the saddle that I don’t like. The quality of the leather is great. It did squeak quite a bit when I first got it, but a few applications of oil, taking care to get it down between the overlapping layers of leather, really cut down the squeaks. The first time I sat in it I said, “OMG! It’s like this saddle was made for me!” 
It fit the mule very well, too. I did the clean white towel test and got a beautiful, even dirt mark.
I would not hesitate to buy another saddle from Mark. In fact, I love the looks of some of those strip down saddles he makes, so if I ever find myself falling into a big bucket of money, I might get one.
The interesting part about Laportes is that you can “adjust” the trees with a rasp, with reportedly no ill effects (within reason one supposes). They did say they could rig something up that would have fit my horse, but ultimately I was too much of a stick in the mud and couldn’t stand the though of the (arguably superior) cable rigging. Apparently it can be cut off if needed and a regular rig added, but that seemed kludgy.
