What about that whip?

Actually operant conditioning has 4 quadrants. Positive and negative do not mean good and bad. Rather they mean that you add or subtract a stimulus.

Positive reinforcement means you reward, like clicker training.

Negative reinforcement means you remove an aversive stimulus and is the basis of 99% of work under saddle where the horse learns that if he obeys pressure, that pressure stops.

Positive punishment is obvious, but can be mild or severe like walloping a pissy mare that just bit and drew blood out of your butt at the mounting block.

Negative punishment is harder to imagine in a horse context. It means taking something away to punish. Like taking away the car keys from your teen.

One big mistake I see is that people do not understand that in negative reinforcement the learning occurs when the pressure is removed. So I see people continue to spur their horse at every step even when he is going OK. Or they will sing out Good Booooy! while continuing to ride with maximum pressure and think that verbal praise works as positive reinforcement rather than releasing pressure.

Another mistake is when does the intent and effect of negative reinforcement become positive punishment? When you are dealing with a really pissy horse that line can be blurred.

Obviously much that horses do is more complicated than just isolated behaviour. But the behaviourist quadrant does give a good clear schema for thinking about what you are doing in a given moment.

I also think it is really useful for humans to be able to think clearly about their own intent and effect.

Horses already know all about operant conditioning and use it every day in the herd. My mare has even figured out how to give me positive rewards. She is clicker training me to clicker train her.

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And if you can not, you should not be wearing them.

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True, but the disadvantage to spurs IMO, is that it’s way too easy to keep the spur on (fail to release), which is much harder to do with a whip.

Not really. If that’s the case the person wearing them has no business wearing them.

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True, but ask that person if they’re ready to wear spurs and they’ll be shocked that you even needed to ask.

Why would anyone do that?

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I don’t wear spurs anymore. My horse bucked me out of the tack and the spurs got stuck under the saddle flap. By some miracle I recovered but haven’t worn spurs since.

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Do what (ask or overestimate their abilities)?

Ask a person why they are wearing spurs because g-you thinks they don’t have an educated leg enough to wear them?

Unless you are their coach, you just shut up and ride your own horse.

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I suspect that the aversives are positive punishment, but just not for the target behavior. IOW, the behavior that’s occurring when the aversive is applied does get punished, but since that’s not the target behavior we ignore that in favor of focusing on the one that gets reinforced when we release.

Now that more people are clicker training horses I think I may be seeing a considerable difference in the overall behavior of horses who are trained with primarily +R/-P vs those who are trained with primarily -R/+P. Not that either is inherently better or worse, but there do seem to be some very interesting differences.

Maybe in hopes that if they were aware of what they were doing it might help the horse?

I still regret not pointing out to someone that she was driving her horse nuts by hanging the spurs into him and not releasing, because she ended up teaching him to rear and ultimately he was put down because of it.

People post videos and ask for critiques when they want input. They can always ignore any suggestions they don’t think apply.

This is a misunderstanding of the behaviourist. quadrant.

If you touch the horse on his side to get lateral movement that is a cue based on negative reinforcement that has never risen to the level of positive punishment. He is not being punished for standing still. He is responding to mild pressure to move.

If you are interested in the topic I suggest looking into the work of Dr Andrew McClean from Australia. He is doing the most coherent thinking right now about how operant conditioning works in conjunction with high level riding. I’ve seen him talk a couole if times and I agree with him that 3 out of the 4 quadrants are really important.

I would add that I spend a fair bit of time watching mares interact and they absolutely rely on negative reinforcement betwern each other. There is very little positive reinforcement among horses.

I’ve been personally quite successful with clicker trick training my mare on the ground. We even do little performances at events. I do agree that clicker training brought out her ability to learn. But I have found no effective way to use clicker extensively in the saddle without continually halting.

Also when a horse is very excited they lose food motivation.

And I can’t see starting clicker training until we have a good repertoire of negative reinforcement. I want a horse to move off and away from me on cue on the ground, and I will move to positive punishment (shanking on the halter) if the horse is running me over.

I’ve worked with a number of green horses on the ground now using 3/4 quadrants. I’ve also watched other people try R + exclusively and they do not get great results, honestly.

But the big thing to remember about R- is that learning starts at the moment pressure is released. So your timing for release has to be excellent.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

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I use a whip for lunging and I almost always take a dressage whip out in the field with me when I’m bringing a horse in/taking hay out etc (because my horses are asshats to one another and while I try really hard to be never caught in the middle of it, it’s always better safe than sorry). I also use it as an arm extension when doing ground work. I can ride with one but can’t remember the last time I did with my own horses- they tend to be super hot and forward anyway. Plus a dressage whip tends to get caught up in sticker bushes etc on the trail lol

Does a flag count?
I carry a telescoping flag that will collapse and fit into my waist bag or back pocket.
It’s an extension of my arm, so does it count as a whip?
I didn’t take the poll since I wasn’t sure of the answer to the above.

Exactly which is why I asked that poster that question.

MYOB is what I follow. I don’t ever comment on people’s riding even when they ask for a critique because most people don’t want to hear the “needs improvement” part, they only want to hear the good things.

ETA: My mare used to lose her mind about whips and crops. One day my trainer picked up a crop that someone left in the arena. She was playing with it waving it around and my mare freaked out. I said “trainer can you stop doing that?” She said oops and put it to the side. My mare is also lazy and it’s hard to get her in front of the leg. Same trainer told me to get spurs and what kind. I asked her if my leg was solid enough and she said yes but it could be better. However nagging my horse would be worse. So I’m sure in those early days with my mare if you saw me ride her you would think I was a terrible person because I did goose her on accident. I’m sure you would also think I was terrible because she got mad when I first used them. However, that’s a small snap shot. I always wear spurs with her. If she figures out you don’t have them, good luck getting her to carry herself. She knows they are there, not because I spur her, but that slight turn of my heel lets her know I have them.

But before the cue, when you’re teaching the horse to move away from the aversive, how does the horse perceive the aversive when he’s standing still? (Not a trick question because I don’t know, but my guess is that he perceives the aversive as a punishment for standing still first.) But then, I’m not distinguishing between levels of aversives, because if it is aversive, which it is if we’re using -R, then it’s probably punishing (with mild aversives mildly punishing and severe aversives severely punishing).

If you are interested in the topic I suggest looking into the work of Dr Andrew McClean from Australia. He is doing the most coherent thinking right now about how operant conditioning works in conjunction with high level riding. I’ve seen him talk a couole if times and I agree with him that 3 out of the 4 quadrants are really important.

I’m familiar with his work, although my interest is more along the lines of what we can get using +R, rather than what we can get using +R and -R, as we already know what we can get using -R.

I would add that I spend a fair bit of time watching mares interact and they absolutely rely on negative reinforcement betwern each other. There is very little positive reinforcement among horses.

I think there’s a lot more than what we realize, because what’s most important to horses is safety.

I’ve been personally quite successful with clicker trick training my mare on the ground. We even do little performances at events. I do agree that clicker training brought out her ability to learn. But I have found no effective way to use clicker extensively in the saddle without continually halting.

All that halting has had a positive effect on my horses’ balance. :slight_smile:

Also when a horse is very excited they lose food motivation.

This is true, and is one of the problems with CT if someone wants to be able to work their horse in traditional ways.

OTOH, sticking with +R can teach one a lot about how to keep horses calm.

And I can’t see starting clicker training until we have a good repertoire of negative reinforcement. I want a horse to move off and away from me on cue on the ground, and I will move to positive punishment (shanking on the halter) if the horse is running me over.

I taught some basics with -R, but didn’t spend much time on it with my +R horses because I didn’t want to confuse the results. I’m back to +R and -R now, but was very interested in finding out what I could get with primarily +R first.

I’ve worked with a number of green horses on the ground now using 3/4 quadrants. I’ve also watched other people try R + exclusively and they do not get great results, honestly.

I think we get wonderful results, because our horses stay sound and live forever because they’re not worked the way -R horses are worked. The +R/-R combination also works, because I can do as much of the training as I want with +R because that’s the most fun, but can then enforce some behaviors (such as “leave the grass alone” and “yes, you must go this way”) by teaching the necessary skills with -R so that I can up the pressure and they know what it means.

Something I did figure out about +R is that I can up the pressure cue all I want, but a +R trained horse will likely perceive it as the same cue.

:slight_smile: