What are the benefits/drawbacks of the stronger bits on XC?

Someone posted this on the other thread, and I think it gets to the heart of the matter: https://www.facebook.com/312345182149453/photos/a.449219441795359.120821.312345182149453/620783444638957/?type=3&pnref=story I was very lucky to train with people who espoused a similar philosophy when I was starting out. Basically, if the answer to every control issue is get a bigger bit, you run the risk of running out bigger bits, and then what? I think the bigger bits/harsher bridles is an outcome of a lot of things, like course design and the loss of the long format. But I think a potential solution is teaching horses to self-regulate. I have put my horse in something of a “time out” where he wanted to turn on the turbo-thrusters and I had to stop everything completely. And we didn’t go forward again until he calmed himself down, which was torture for him. He loves running and jumping almost as much as breathing, so insisting we didn’t go forward until he got a hold of himself was very effective. I only had to do it twice, and once was at a competition, before he learned to rein himself back in when I asked nicely. And then he was a lot easier to turn and maneuver because he wasn’t so head-in-the-clouds and hyped up.

Maybe we should implement something similar to the down-stay table in dog agility. Halfway through, you have to slow down to a walk on the buckle for 100 meters or something. Or maybe it’s too logistically difficult, but at least it’d be interesting to watch. :wink:

What strikes me about the double bridle pics is that they are used with a plain caveson. So you have a double bridle, which you can adjust the leverage on, and a moderate mouth piece, but nothing holding the mouth shut.

It does make me really uncomfortable to see horses bridled in devices containing multiple pain points. Leverage+a harsh mouth piece+ a drop, figure 8 or flash strapping the mouth shut is a lot. An no one is perfect on XC, we all loose our balance and pull on the mouth (some more often than other, but it happens).

My mare was ridden for years in a double twisted wire full cheek which makes me :eek:. She said heck no to a pelham, ok with a kimberwick, but happy with a Myler like this: https://www.toklat.com/Products/BP/89-22435 which offered me stopping power and not much fuss from her. It worked well because she tended to put her head down and GO after fences. This gave a bit of leverage.

Eventually she settled, I got better at adjusting her with my body and we downgraded to jumping in a plain egg-butt mullen mouth. I am thinking of trying a single-jointed full cheek to jump since I like the mullen mouth’s feel, but my steering isn’t awesome.

It isn’t easy to find the perfect bit, I give people that.

Maybe part of what is upsetting is the trend to take bit concepts that were designed for the use of two reins and using them with only one–the harsher one. Most gags were meant originally to have the snaffle rein and the gag rein. Pelhams were designed to be ridden with two reins. In short, the empirical consensus, if looking at lots of XC photographs is valid, seems to be that riding on the snaffle rein just doesn’t work very well today for many riders. Now whether that is caused by lack of foundation, holes in training, or modern courses is the question.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8385013]
When I’ve been looking at bitting, I haven’t bothered to look at sj bits. Of the photos you’ve posted, Jenny Camp in a double bridle is the only XC picture.[/QUOTE]

I also noticed, in the picture, it doesn’t look like she is wearing a nose band, either.

Some horses do a lot better with no noseband. I have one right now that has a massive back jaw and it tapers down to a narrow front jaw … any noseband I’ve tried pulls his cheeks into his molars …he is pretty cheeky, too … so we use a pelham with two reins and no noseband. You can see when he bites his cheek, or feel it. He hates doing it. There is a tiny jerk with his jaw. He’s a Welsh Cob Section D. I think there is a reason so many of them go in pelhams over in England.

Up until I got him, most of the horse I rode were TBs or WBs or some variation of the same. All of my equipment was oriented toward that skull shape.

I’ve ridden horses that were known to run away with their riders wearing a slow twist semi sharp edge snaffle. I ended up putting them in a regular snaffle and they never ran away with me. So what is the difference?

I think Bernie Traurig said it somewhere on his video on bits, but I’ve heard it many times over the years … you have to “make” a mouth on the horse. It doesn’t just happen. Keeping the nerves from being damaged is a large part of that … you want those nerves to be responsive when you need them. Traurig also discussed “feeling” the horse’s mouth … feeling how they react to whatever is in there in your hands. Some horses hate certain types of bits because they have very fleshy mouths, or low palettes or … whatever. Some horses carry a bit where it actually rests almost on the bars … they have a thin tongue and high bars.

Interesting thread :slight_smile:
from my own experience (I would consider my self an experienced ammie) I have found that with correct training and not rushing a horse up the grades that horses can stay in a snaffle all the way through to 3* competition. I Have found once you start using stronger bits you are on a down-hill slope where you just have to keep using stronger and stronger bits. My 3* horses have all been the ones i took through the grades in a snaffle and they have remained the most beautiful cross country rides and I also feel less guilty if I get a touch left behind when riding in a snaffle. Each to their own but I’m a snaffle person through and through :slight_smile:

Nadia1990 gets it.

How often I wonder is it caused by making xc machines out of horses that are not that naturally courageous and brave and have been “schooled” to go forward come hell or high water.

I know that sometimes bitting up a nervous horse often just makes them more nervous. I like a soft mouth in my hands, but if I need to get their attention I will definitely give them a left upper cut, so to speak, and that is one thing I am adamant about, then they get a light hand / contact … they must listen when I ask nicely, especially when we go out and begin to really crank up the pace …

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8385351]
Maybe part of what is upsetting is the trend to take bit concepts that were designed for the use of two reins and using them with only one–the harsher one. Most gags were meant originally to have the snaffle rein and the gag rein. Pelhams were designed to be ridden with two reins. In short, the empirical consensus, if looking at lots of XC photographs is valid, seems to be that riding on the snaffle rein just doesn’t work very well today for many riders. Now whether that is caused by lack of foundation, holes in training, or modern courses is the question.[/QUOTE]

BINGO - all the way through.

Even in the Horse Nation example (1st post link) of a leverage bit, they show a Pelham with a converter. In my tiny opinion, that isn’t a Pelham. It’s a Pelham-with-a-converter, because the converter defeats the purpose of a Pelham.

So many riders are ready to die on a hill for their right not to learn to use two reins. As viney says, the question is if that is because of rider education, or perhaps what riders feel they need on powerful fit horses on modern courses, or what.

It’s a Pelham-with-a-converter, because the converter defeats the purpose of a Pelham.

:yes:

Leverage bits aren’t originally designed to use for turning … think about it … if it’s a straight bar or bar with port mouthpiece and using one rein to turn just sort of pulls the bit off kilter in the mouth … it is designed to create an even leverage on both sides of the mouth and pressure on the poll and curb chain … so it tends to be the bit that gets the horse’s attention through a small amount of pain if too much pressure is used … … the nerves under the jaw with the curb chain and the pressure from the mouthpiece on the tongue and the bars … sort of a vice … ok, it is a vice, so it should be used judiciously. It also is good for flexion of the poll. If the pressure on the rein(s) is light you will just get flexion. It also is a good bit to use in one hand because it is a sort of single unit type of bit.

The snaffle is a direct rein contact bit that can be worked from either side and can be used to communicate a lot of things to the horse in a very comfortable manner … can be used a lot as a pain free communication device with good training of the rider.

The snaffle can also be used to inflict pain of you need to. And sometimes you need to on some horses. Drop the contact on one side and then use a motion that is a severe sharp yank … you only need to do it once and you will get their attention … sure, you may bruise the bar but with a good thick smooth mouthpiece you will not be doing any damage … at least you shouldn’t be able to. I weigh 125 pounds, so maybe a guy that weighs in at 250 might need to tone it down.

A curb bit with a mouthpiece that is broken like a single joint snaffle or a french link gives a different kind of action … still not the best bit to use for turning. It is a good bit to use for flexion at the poll if you use both reins or as a jaw strap if you use one rein. You can definitely get their attention with it.

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;8385971]
EDITED:
Leverage bits aren’t originally designed to use for turning … It also is good for flexion of the poll…

The snaffle is a direct rein contact bit that can be worked from either side and can be used to communicate a lot of things to the horse in a very comfortable manner …

A curb bit with a mouthpiece that is broken like a single joint snaffle or a french link gives a different kind of action … It is a good bit to use for flexion at the poll if you use both reins or as a jaw strap if you use one rein. You can definitely get their attention with it.[/QUOTE]

A lot of what tack was originally designed for has been lost in the years. If we understood what purpose a piece of tack was designed for and rode with that purpose in mind, there would be a lot less abuse of “gadgets”.

A flash was never really designed to hold a horse’s mouth closed, but rather to stabilise the bit in a young horse’s mouth and to encourage the horse to take hold of the bit and move forward into it. Ideal for horses who back off a bit.
A drop was designed to back a horse off the bit, for horses who took too strong a hold.

I had a mare who hated snaffles. Just abhorred them. We eventually settled on a Filet Baucher Waterford (oh a Waterford how cruel, all those joints and knobbles) and I could take her around a 1.2m course on a gentle rein with an excellent rhythm. Put her in a snaffle and she would toss her head, stamp her feet, charge through the bridle and bolt on landing.

Each horse in unique and their bit and nosebands should be fitted for their unique mouth and head conformation.

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8385878]
BINGO - all the way through.

Even in the Horse Nation example (1st post link) of a leverage bit, they show a Pelham with a converter. In my tiny opinion, that isn’t a Pelham. It’s a Pelham-with-a-converter, because the converter defeats the purpose of a Pelham.

So many riders are ready to die on a hill for their right not to learn to use two reins. As viney says, the question is if that is because of rider education, or perhaps what riders feel they need on powerful fit horses on modern courses, or what.[/QUOTE]

Most of those riders also ride in a double on the flat. It isn’t a matter of being incapable of using two reins, it’s that there isn’t really time on course at the ULs to constantly slip and re- adjust two sets of reins (seriously, try it yourself sometime). There is a lot more steering needed on modern courses at that level.

No, a Pelham with a converter isn’t the same as a Pelham with two reins. OTOH, for some horses it works as well or better. For some horses it doesn’t. The reason we HAVE all these bitting options is because not every horse was successful in a double, pelham, or snaffle and dropped noseband. If these bits and nosebands had been available then, they probably would have used them.

Please note that I am not saying that doesn’t mean that there aren’t bits, nosebands, or combinations of bits and nosebands that shouldn’t be used. But I don’t think that the availability of options beyond the double, pelham, and drop is a bad thing or that their use is an indicator of lack of horsemanship.

From many years of watching eventing and showjumping there are some very good riders who can ride horse beautifully in a stronger bits these are the riders that never see a bad distance, never get left behind and have a truly independent seat and these horses go very softly in these bits (usually with double rains also) HOWEVER most people riding around in these massive bits use them to make up for a lack of education with both themselves and their horses and are trying to fix problems the easy way (which very rarely works). Of course there are exceptions as there is to every rule but in most cases many riders are abusing there choice of bit.

Historically, “leverage” bits (in the military or hunting field, usually the double bridle) were considered the complete and appropriate equipment for a horse with an educated or “made” mouth. One who kindly accepts flexion of jaw and poll, yields to pressure, and is schooled to the indirect rein (neck reining). Such a horse would not “pull,” and a light hand on the double bridle easily kept him balanced, on the flat or over fences. Leverage bits most certainly ARE good for turning, you can ride the horse with one hand! (Watch a reiner sometime!) :slight_smile:

This was called a “finished” horse, and to ride him a rider was expected to have “good” hands. Meaning, you weren’t using them to balance, water-ski or otherwise keep yourself in the saddle. On the flat or even in saddle-seat, the snaffle was used to raise the neck and withers and the curb for relaxed flexion. Your trainer allowing you to use a double bridle was up there with getting your toe shoes in ballet–it meant you had reached a certain milestone in skill and preparation.

Such was the state of the art through the end of the 1960’s. You will see MANY pictures of hunters, jumpers, equitation horses, foxhunters, and eventers using this as the “default” combination of bits under the “finished” or expert rider.

In the 70’s the Pelham, particularly rubber, became popular because it was a little more “forgiving”–one didn’t need to have “as good” hands as for a double, but still had more “brakes” and control than in a snaffle. Foxhunters found it a good compromise, and pony and children’s hunters found them very efficacious.
The MOST popular bit used in riding schools for beginners was the Kimberwicke, because it allowed beginners to have decent control before they had a truly independent seat; having no shank, it is not truly a “leverage” bit.

The “broken curb,” "broken “Pelham,” “Tom Thumb,” etc. are not “leverage” bits at all, because when the “leverage” would be applied it breaks in the middle. If anything, all these bits accomplish is to provide turning stability due to the full cheek coverage afforded; functionally, they are snaffles. They can also have an enhanced “nutcracker” effect which can be problematical.

Traditionally, it was considered an exercise for a very, very advanced horseman to ride a horse through all his paces, in the ring and across country, in a plain snaffle. Such a horse was exceptionally educated for sensitivity, and the rider also had a very sophisticated knowledge of obtaining balance and flexion. This did not apply to the racecourse, where the horse leaned on the snaffle for balance and was “rated” by main force.

With the importation of Warmbloods as the sporthorse of choice in the 80’s and the “Eurocentrism” that followed, riding styles changed to more “behind the motion” and “driving seat” and somehow or other the notion that a snaffle alone was a “kinder” bit for beginenrs mutated from the dressage show arena (a very controlled environment) to being elevated to general use. All of a sudden you “weren’t quite nice” if you didn’t ride your horse in a snaffle–never mind that he frequently wasn’t educated to flex and yield and so you were getting run away with in the the hunting field, jumping chancy and flat on XC, and people with all good intentions were teaching their horses to pull by hanging onto the reins from an incomplete teaching about “contact.”

Which brings us to where we are today.

Personally, I’d rather ride ANY horse with my fingers and weight than with my arms and muscles. If you had to ride him all day it’s a lot less fatiguing. A horse who comes easily back to your hand upon the nearly invisible aid of sitting up a little straighter and closing your leg, who can invisibly add a stride before a fence, who is listening and not resisting, is an awful lot safer than one who is engaged in a wrestling match for balance, at speed over terrain. And riding him is a PLEASURE, which combined with safety is a lot more important to ME than being “politically correct.” My best advice is to ride in what works best for YOUR horse, given your skills, if it’s allowed by the rules in competition. Nothing says you must use nothing but “allowed” bits at home, either. There are many horses in the world who just “don’t get” flexion in a plain, broken snaffle. Years ago these things were understood very well.

Quoted from Lady Eboshi:

Historically, “leverage” bits (in the military or hunting field, usually the double bridle) were considered the complete and appropriate equipment for a horse with an educated or “made” mouth. One who kindly accepts flexion of jaw and poll, yields to pressure, and is schooled to the indirect rein (neck reining). Such a horse would not “pull,” and a light hand on the double bridle easily kept him balanced, on the flat or over fences. Leverage bits most certainly ARE good for turning, you can ride the horse with one hand! (Watch a reiner sometime!)

In discussion of the definition of the bit itself, leverage bits are NOT good for turning, meaning they are not considered a “direct contact” bit. It is not a good bit to start young horses in; it is a bit for finished horses. It is the training and working from the seat and leg aids of the rider that allow the leverage bit to work in turning … but it isn’t by using the leverage bit for the “opening” or “leading” rein type of early communication with the horse.

By the time a horse is working correctly enough to go into a leverage bit, they are TRAINED to work off of the seat and leg aids to turn. You can’t get there by starting a horse in it. The “direct contact” bit is the training bit.

The leverage bit is NOT a training bit.

These are basic bit definitions.

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;8386141]
In discussion of the definition of the bit itself, leverage bits are NOT good for turning, meaning they are not considered a “direct contact” bit. It is not a good bit to start young horses in; it is a bit for finished horses. It is the training and working from the seat and leg aids of the rider that allow the leverage bit to work in turning … but it isn’t by using the leverage bit for the “opening” or “leading” rein type of early communication with the horse.

By the time a horse is working correctly enough to go into a leverage bit, they are TRAINED to work off of the seat and leg aids to turn. You can’t get there by starting a horse in it. The “direct contact” bit is the training bit.

The leverage bit is NOT a training bit.

These are basic bit definitions.[/QUOTE]

I thought this discussion concerned bitting for XC and SJ, not starting green horses. It goes without saying that by the time he is working over fences, he should be trained to work off seat, leg and weight aids to turn. If fact, the better your horse is trained, the less you find you have to use your hands!