What are the benefits/drawbacks of the stronger bits on XC?

[OverandOnward]

This is not intended to be a criticism round-up of these bits. There are times they are helpful without being unkind to the horse. The question is - why are so many riders using them? What about our sport, or our horses, is pushing this trend?

Obviously this is a spinoff thread - without names - focusing on just one aspect of the use of an array of complicated bits in eventing these days … the reasons people are turning to these on cross-country … not only at the UL’s. Have seen many an amateur with some interesting stuff strapped to their horse’s head.

It is not necessary to single out individual riders by name, unless there is someone who is a good example of a positive and effective use of a particular bit. In that case - link to photos, please!

What are the benefits/positives that encourage riders to use these? Obviously there are some, or they wouldn’t be so widespread.

What are the drawbacks?

Bits we are talking about: The more extreme leverage and/or gag bits. Let’s assume we all know HOW they work - this isn’t for explaining that.

This thread is for WHEN and WHY they are used on XC.

links to basic explanations from Horse Nation
leverage (linked) = brings down the giraffe head
gag (linked) = “elevator” of the head

Examples of the combination bits being used today. By someone, somewhere.

I believe this one was original sold as a western bit, but it is now out there on course. You can get it at Dover, of course.
http://www.doversaddlery.com/mikmar-orginial-combo-bit/p/X1-01734/

One of the simpler Mikmars
http://marystack.com/mikmar-simple-center-2-ring-gag-bit/?cmp=googleproducts&kw=mikmar-simple-center-2ring-gag-bit&gclid=CNm4gIbA8MgCFYM-aQodZCQO5Q

Others:
https://www.valleyvet.com/group_images/38172_A.jpg

http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/upload/7332/images/Mikmar%20Pelham%20Bit.jpg

https://www.valleyvet.com/swatches\28905_S_vvs_Z14.jpg

Did riders of earlier eras get around without this kind of help? Is it because their courses were more straightforward, less slowing & less complicated combinations? (Caveat that we can’t see the mouthpieces.)

Michael Plumb - snaffle
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2b/e0/b6/2be0b6e63a49716bfbdba5c6ffe41fa1.jpg
http://useventing.com/resources/images/hof/jmichaelplumb.jpg

Tad Coffin 1976 Olympics
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/88/1c/72/881c72bc54ebc8ac66562017a2dbf189.jpg

Jim Wofford - snaffle
http://horsetalkmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/wofford.jpg
http://www.bitofbritain.com/v/vspfiles/photos/019915-2.jpg

Princess Anne in 1976 had a real gag
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01557/Princess_Anne_Now__1557678a.jpg

Do any of the below explain why we are seeing more of the leverage/gag bits, especially the more complex bitting rigs?

Speed?
Goes to the way the sport is structured. We see this in the 4* live feeds, and many UL riders have ambitions to ride at the level. Speed on cross-country is sorting out the winners these days. For a horse, speed = adrenaline; adrenaline = less responsiveness. Regardless of foundation training, does it take an extreme bit to keep control at the speed required to get in the top 10, top 5?

Combination jumps?
Goes to the way the sport is structured. The more complicated combination jumps require a considered pace and maneuverability. Are the more extreme bits/bridles needed on today’s courses to get a speeding horse geared down and ride-able for these combinations?

Correct conditioning?
Let’s face it, the horses don’t hang around their stalls and pastures doing back-strengthening and lateral-strengthening exercises. It requires considerable muscular development for today’s eventing. If a talented, athletic horse will keep moving up and jumping before that is fully developed, are the stronger bits necessary to get the horse in jumping frame in spite of the lack of aid-responsiveness and development?

Solid responsiveness to aids?
Are horses being moved up before they are solid on the aids when their adrenaline is up, and new challenges are being presented? Do the leverage and gag bits fill in the holes?

Riders not strong enough?
Could riders using these bits get by without them, on the same horse, with more personal strength? Either due to conditioning or to natural strength limits.

Rider education?
Were taught to use these bits as standard operating procedure? And/or, hasn’t been taught how to be effective without them? The leverage/gag may still be needed with certain horses in certain circumstances, but even if not, maybe some riders don’t have the skills base to have not using it as an option?

Other holes in training of the horse?
Are UL event horses today getting all the foundation they need before moving up - or is there a lot of hurrying up the levels?

Reluctance to tell someone ‘no’?
Reluctance by eventing establishment, including trainers/instructors, to simply tell someone ‘no you may not ride in that bit’? To say ‘if you can’t get around your course without THAT, go back and take more lessons and don’t try this again until you can do it in a more appropriate bit’?

Very interested in information, experience and real-life situations. Thanks for your contributions!

[gardenie]

I think that it isn’t so much about bits. It is about combination of bit and method of forcing a mouth shut that is really the issue. Should it ever be chain, nylon (doesn’t give) or should only leather be allowed? Should there be easily a finger stuck in between the noseband and horse (or two as I was taught back in the dark ages). Should a running martingale be fitted properly (it doesn’t come into play until the horses head goes above the normal hand to bit line, not constantly dragging on the horse’s mouth). And how are we going to legislate this? Should a noseband of some type be required (all the folks that think no noseband is nice, all the weight just goes on the lower jaw when there is no noseband). I think that a horse can get away from the pain a bit more in a leather, fairly fitted noseband, or more easily run away from the pain. Closing the mouth somewhat forcefully makes them seek release of the hand because over time they learn running away is less available? Only allowing cavessons vs nosebands that close the mouth with certain bits?

[BaroquePony]

Some bits look like they can shred a mouth … so that might not be a good choice.

[vineyridge]

Spinoff–The Evolution of Bits and tack in eventing over time

We could make this a forum project. There are videos available from at least the 1930s of eventing in the Olympics. There are lots of videos and photographs of other top level competitions, horses and top riders. We could analyze the tack and see just what was used and what is now used. And when and if it changed.

Some one posted old photographs in one of their posts in the other thread and I found it very interesting. If we can show that things have changed, that would give ammunition to the view that harsh tack is not necessary.

[omare]

Training methods can also be to blame for an out of control forward button–that requires a big brake–I have seen it in show jumping where a horse knows it is not allowed to stop or else, so it goes and goes fast to protect itself–forward implusion is mandated at all costs so only big brakes will contain the effects of the punishment for not going forarad.

[wookiee]

Personally, for my very forward, distance running TB, the loss of the long format means the difference between a snaffle ride and “big bit” ride. I have done hunter paces where he settles and jumps well after 5 miles of trotting/cantering. I could then do XC in a halter. But before then, he is hungry for the fences, loves his job. He’s still controllable and, admittedly green, but I ride him in a mylar combination with the reins on the second ring and a sheepskin cover on the leather noseband.
ref: https://www.toklat.com/Products/BP/89-31315

I do think getting these high octane horses out on course before they can settle “in the natural environment” does make it more intense ride.

So I am very interested in the bitting changes historically around the change from long format to short format.

[KandC]

At least in my (very limited) personal experience, I tended to bit up for XC because I had a nervous/strong/green horse. (Stadium in a snaffle D, XC in an elevator with the rein on 2nd/3rd bubble to check the horse as needed) But ironically, with training, I learned to ride more from my seat/legs, and ended up being able to school BN/N XC and gallop in a French link. Now, I feel most comfortable riding most horses in snaffles, but I acknowledge that there are some who go better in different bits.

I think bitting up can be valuable based on the horse and rider combination, but it seems to be a quick fix to rise up the ranks without addressing training holes/experience. Bits are like any other tool; most have their benefits, but should be used in conjunction with riding at an appropriate level, good riding and good training.

But like I said, I have limited (1-2 non-recognized events, schooled XC regularly) experience, so these are more my personal beliefs than anything else.

[enjoytheride]

The main benefit would be not having to wrestle with a horse when you need to make an adjustment. If you can make a mild correction and rate the horse it is not only safer but more humane. Take a look at Sinead Halpin going through bit choices for the pony. She spent quite a bit of time figuring out what bit best kept her from getting run away with on a pony and what bit just pissed the pony off. It wasn’t just changing bits, it was going up a level, back down a level, working on the dressage, getting time penalties by making the pony circle or go slow, that all make me totally comfortable with the bitting choices.

[vineyridge]

Very good point about a horse who has done long format’s pre-XC phases and one who hasn’t. Would it even be possible to ride a steeplechase in some of the modern bitting rigs? And the point about the horse having been worked down before starting XC is quite cogent.

I was looking at the photos of Poggio II, who was notoriously difficult, and it looks as if AT used several different setups from a hackmore to a plain gag with a flash, to a Mikmar which I haven’t run down yet to a Dutch gag.

Kim Severson rode Winsome Adante at Athens in a plain gag with a figure eight noseband.

[OverandOnward]

This is the thing … from the links I included in the first post of riders in the 1970’s & earlier, clearly they were getting around with great effectiveness in what appears to be a snaffle. I won’t say a “plain snaffle” because no idea what is in the middle, concealed in the horse’s mouth.

But that doesn’t prove they could as effectively get around today’s course with the same horse in the same bit. To look at bits in use historically - a very valuable step - you also have to look closely at the course they rode AND the time factors.

SPEED is what I suspect is at the root of many of the bit choices. It isn’t JUST the jumps, the maneuverability, the increasing complexity of show-jump style turn & jump in the middle of xc. It’s doing all that AND making the time. Horses are hyped on adrenaline approaching a complex question.

And that goes to the whole design of the sport as an incentive to more creative bitting. But that is just a suspicion on my part, and I hope those who know much more will contribute to this thread.

[Gumby80]

Certainly more technical courses are influential. You can’t have a horse tanking off with you when you’re coming up to a combination that essentially requires you to pull up and show-jump it.

There’s also more choice now. Back “in the day”, sliding gags and port-mouth pelhams were popular (and they’re still strong bits), but I don’t remember there being hundreds of other options like there is now. These days, it’s much more acceptable to try other more non-traditional bits.

At the lower levels, we might speculate that there’s been a proliferation of lower grades with smaller jumps, and more amateurs, often on OTTBs. While wonderful horses, they need some skill and expertise to re-mouth. I wonder if many folks at lower-level barns (like me!) don’t have really good help to do this, and go straight to the large bits instead.

Just a speculation, but I wonder if any of the very strong upper-level horses we see going around today in very sharp bits would have been discarded as too difficult some years back? Is that possible?

[vineyridge]

Michael Jung rides Sam XC in a plain snaffle with a dropped noseband. Leopin FST has gone XC in a full double bridle.

Here is a gallery of professional photos of recent eventing in France, including the CICO3* at Fontainebleau. You can see what riders, both men and women, in Europe are using. http://www.photo-equi.com/eventing/

For instance, here is a photo of Laura Collett from GB and her setup for one horse at Fontainbleau in 2013. http://www.photo-equi.com/gallery/laura-collett-gbr-allora-3/ The bit appears to be a w gag with double reins.

Ludwig Svennerstal is photographed riding in a pelham with no snaffle rein at all.

[Bogie]

I think you overlook the fact that many people in the “good old days” rode in a Pelham, and, even more common a double bridle. And yes, I agree that the long format helped horses to settle.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72180000/jpg/_72180326_richardmeadetwo.jpg

http://awhitecarousel.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/673319-bill-roycroft.jpg

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/07/25/1226434/680655-bill-roycroft.jpg

http://www.triplecreekfarmpa.com/images/JumpEThompsonONJennyCamp.jpg
http://www.horse-canada.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Cdn-Team-4.jpg

BTW, as someone who rides in a Mikmar short shank, I can tell you that my horse likes it a WHOLE lot more than his snaffle, probably because it sits nicely over his tongue and has that nice roller to play with. As a foxhunter (used to be eventer) I want a bit that enables me to make changes without hauling on my horse’s mouth. Granted, the hunt field is a different animal, but I like to stay off my horse’s mouth completely unless necessary.

[FitToBeTied]

I can’t speak to the ULR’s but for my TB he goes in a copper roller snaffle except for fox hunting and XC. There he is in a happy mouth three ring w/two reins. I find that I can take a much lighter hand with him when he gets a bit up whereas with the copper roller he can just grab it and go.

So my expeience with a stronger bit is it allows me to apply a lighter hand.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Bogie;8384972]
I think you overlook the fact that many people in the “good old days” rode in a Pelham, and, even more common a double bridle. And yes, I agree that the long format helped horses to settle.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72180000/jpg/_72180326_richardmeadetwo.jpg

http://awhitecarousel.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/673319-bill-roycroft.jpg

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/07/25/1226434/680655-bill-roycroft.jpg

http://www.triplecreekfarmpa.com/images/JumpEThompsonONJennyCamp.jpg
http://www.horse-canada.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Cdn-Team-4.jpg

BTW, as someone who rides in a Mikmar short shank, I can tell you that my horse likes it a WHOLE lot more than his snaffle, probably because it sits nicely over his tongue and has that nice roller to play with. As a foxhunter (used to be eventer) I want a bit that enables me to make changes without hauling on my horse’s mouth. Granted, the hunt field is a different animal, but I like to stay off my horse’s mouth completely unless necessary.[/QUOTE]

When I’ve been looking at bitting, I haven’t bothered to look at sj bits. Of the photos you’ve posted, Jenny Camp in a double bridle is the only XC picture.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=Bogie;8384972]
I think you overlook the fact that many people in the “good old days” rode in a Pelham, and, even more common a double bridle. …[/QUOTE]

They did, and they rode with 2 reins, so they could ride on the snaffle until they needed the shank. These days I almost never see a Pelham without a converter so the rider uses only one rein. Hardly anyone seems to use a traditional double bridle on cross-country, although there may have been one or two in the photo gallery links posted above your post.

A Pelham or double, especially with a long shank, can be very severe, and in the wrong hands, as abusive or more so than some of the modern bits in the wrong hands.

I think the stronger leverage and gag bitting rigs are here to stay, and it’s just a matter of how and when.

[subk]

An increase in harsher bits may coincide with the increase in WBs in eventing. None of the TBs I’ve ever ridden would have tolerated a mouthful of metal with their faces strapped shut with chains and what not. WBs in my expereince tend to be less persnickety and more tolerant of a wider variety of training methods.

[Bogie]

@OverandOnward;8385116

They did, and they rode with 2 reins, so they could ride on the snaffle until they needed the shank. These days I almost never see a Pelham without a converter so the rider uses only one rein. Hardly anyone seems to use a traditional double bridle on cross-country, although there may have been one or two in the photo gallery links posted above your post.

I agree. Much preferable to use two reins so you can ride off the snaffle. I still know people who hunt in a double so they are out there, but in general, you are correct – I see people using a pelham with a converter or riding off the bottom ring on a 2-3 ring elevator.

@VINEYRIDGE

When I’ve been looking at bitting, I haven’t bothered to look at sj bits. Of the photos you’ve posted, Jenny Camp in a double bridle is the only XC picture.

True. I didn’t look that long. I mostly was looking at images from the 1960s. Obviously, I can’t tell what they used for XC but I was not suprised to see so many double bridles.

[BaroquePony]

I still use pelhams with 2 reins. That was the point of it. You can ride off the snaffle most of the time. Only engage the curb when you need it. It helps keep a horse light and working correctly. Same idea with the double. I like the pelham because there is nothing in the mouth that can pinch accidentally like the double.

[NeverTime]

Bits evolve over time, and bitting/bridling fads rise and fall. (I don’t think I ever see Kimberwickes any more, for example; and drop nose bands are few and far between these days, but elevator bits and Micklem bridles are ubiquitous.)
I agree that the technicality and demand that horses change speeds so quickly and be SO accurate likely has played a big role in the desire to find something a horse responds to almost instantaneously.
People might be interested in looking at the gallery of Kit Houghton’s XC photos from 1978-2003, linked to below. Bits with plain snaffle rings rule, but there are plenty of gags in there, as well as some elevators (spotted one snaffle-looking big with a copper mouthpiece that was drawing blood), pelhams (here’s Rodney Powell with a long shank and a converter in the late '80s) and this picture of Murphy Himself, an infamously strong horse who went from Ginny Leng to Ian Stark because she didn’t feel she could control him, wearing some kind of combination noseband I’ve never seen before but I’m guessing was part of the control game for him.