What are the benefits/drawbacks of the stronger bits on XC?

Knights had a sword in one hand and a shield in the other. They couldn’t ride with contact. Cavalry riders had lances, swords, pistols and rifles, all of which had to be controlled off the back of galloping horses. They didn’t ride with contact, either. The closest modern thing to the cavalry is polo, and those horses are also not ridden with constant contact.

If bits like those are used in eventing, the rider should use neck reining and seat/leg aids for control. NOT contact.

Again, those bits should only come into use at the end of the horse’s education, after the horse is bridle-wise. Use of those bits requires a completely different riding/training system than the one that eventers normally use which does rely on contact for control.

That’s a good point, viney. And the fact of the matter is that if you have a horse that is generally good but every now and then loses its focus XC and pulls you through the base of a big solid table XC in a snaffle, the consequences of that unfortunately very well could be death too. I for one think we ought to remember that bitting XC (or over fences in general) is a safety issue. Too much bit can be just as much of a safety issue if it precludes the horse from going forward to the fences. It’s the rider’s responsibility to learn to bit the horse appropriately before heading out there, and to train the horse to be as responsive as possible to stay safe. It is not an either/or.

A quote from George Morris’ compendium of “Between Rounds” columns, collected in the book Because Every Round Counts, page 184:
[I]
"Teaching and developing legs on a rider is relatively easy and takes a relatively short time. Developing a seat is much harder and takes much longer, usually about 10 years.

But to develop “educated” hands takes a lifetime at best. To be perfectly honest, most people never acquire educated hands. They don’t have the feel, the patience, or the time.

The great principle of riding is called “give and take,” but, in truth, we should say “take and give.” There is a big difference, and that’s the way it really works. One applies pressure, then releases it, not the other way around. The “take” on a horse’s mouth is when any pressure is applied to do anything; slowing, stopping, bending, turning, or balancing the horse. The “give” is simply the cessation of pressure just when the horse responds, or even before the horse responds.

Just as in life, it is much more difficult for people to give than to take. It is also a self-preservation, defensive reaction for most people to grab a horse’s mouth when they feel at all insecure, which is most of the time."
[/I]
Certainly XC would qualify for most of us as “defensive” riding.

Personally, I think a HUGE amount of horrendous hanging-on takes place under the cover of the German-derived but often poorly taught feeling of “contact.”
The “contact” George describes above demands self-carriage of a horse who willingly yields at jaw and poll to the bit. The old-time cavalry horses wearing doubles and Pelhams were trained to THAT contact, not what we think of today–which too often is a horse bearing with weight or force onto the bit. The contact George is talking about is seldom taught today, and if it is it’s in the hunter world and not “dressage.”

So what’s to do?

A horse over-bitted in a curb, and then allowed to bear, will quickly either “go behind” leg and hand and start quitting, or become a “borer” who runs away with his chin on his chest and his weight on his forehand. Both would quickly eliminate themselves from contention in eventing, or even the hunting field.

I would advocate legal XC bits as: Snaffle, Pelham, Weymouth, Kimberwicke, Gag, or any modern derivative which demonstrates a similar effect. The onus would then be on the rider to prove why their one-of-a-kind riggin’ should be legal if the TD questions it.

One of the hardest things for me to learn was to make a horse go forward … when he bucks, when he rears, when he sticks and even when he tends to want to run off, on a loose rein … that may seem counterintuitive, but it has the effect of bringing the horse’s attention back to the rider … without messing with his mouth … but you definitely need to be picking the area you train or retrain in carefully … this is part of training (ETA: actually retraining because that is dealing with the already ruined horse, horse shouldn’t have learned those bad habits in the 1st place) though and not competition ready.

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8391035]
A quote from George Morris’ compendium of “Between Rounds” columns, collected in the book Because Every Round Counts, page 184:
[I]
"Teaching and developing legs on a rider is relatively easy and takes a relatively short time. Developing a seat is much harder and takes much longer, usually about 10 years.

But to develop “educated” hands takes a lifetime at best. To be perfectly honest, most people never acquire educated hands. They don’t have the feel, the patience, or the time.

The great principle of riding is called “give and take,” but, in truth, we should say “take and give.” There is a big difference, and that’s the way it really works. One applies pressure, then releases it, not the other way around. The “take” on a horse’s mouth is when any pressure is applied to do anything; slowing, stopping, bending, turning, or balancing the horse. The “give” is simply the cessation of pressure just when the horse responds, or even before the horse responds.

Just as in life, it is much more difficult for people to give than to take. It is also a self-preservation, defensive reaction for most people to grab a horse’s mouth when they feel at all insecure, which is most of the time."
[/I]
Certainly XC would qualify for most of us as “defensive” riding.

Personally, I think a HUGE amount of horrendous hanging-on takes place under the cover of the German-derived but often poorly taught feeling of “contact.”
The “contact” George describes above demands self-carriage of a horse who willingly yields at jaw and poll to the bit. The old-time cavalry horses wearing doubles and Pelhams were trained to THAT contact, not what we think of today–which too often is a horse bearing with weight or force onto the bit. The contact George is talking about is seldom taught today, and if it is it’s in the hunter world and not “dressage.”

So what’s to do?

A horse over-bitted in a curb, and then allowed to bear, will quickly either “go behind” leg and hand and start quitting, or become a “borer” who runs away with his chin on his chest and his weight on his forehand. Both would quickly eliminate themselves from contention in eventing, or even the hunting field.

I would advocate legal XC bits as: Snaffle, Pelham, Weymouth, Kimberwicke, Gag, or any modern derivative which demonstrates a similar effect. The onus would then be on the rider to prove why their one-of-a-kind riggin’ should be legal if the TD questions it.[/QUOTE]

Most bits fit in that category though. In fact, other than the combination bits (with the nose strap/ hackamore) pretty much all the UL xc bits I’ve seen have been variations on the snaffle or gag.

I have a bronze sculpture of a 15th century Russian War Horse … for the Russian Guard … the rider has all kinds of weapons on him and on his saddle … and he is using a snaffle bit. Rider has a huge straight sword, a mace … don’t forget the damage those things can do and some sort of weird ax … hand held type of ax weapon.

Pre gun era.

And his equitation is very good … heel under hip basically.

If you google medieval knight tapestries you will get a significant mix. Many horses in very harsh curb bits with gaping mouths ridden on a tight rein. There’s no need to overglorify yesteryear, it wasn’t all perfection.

The Mongols, on the other hand, seem to pretty much have stuck to snaffles. They might have slaughtered millions but they were darn good horsemen while they did it.

If you look at the horses in action on the Bayeux Tapestry, they are all being ridden on a loose rein attached to strong curb bits. This was reflecting the history of the Norman Conquest, and the battle was in 1066. The tapestry is nearly contemporaneous.

The Mongols were mostly mounted archers. Takes two hands to shoot a bow. Horse control has to come from the seat and legs. The ancient Empires (Roman, Turks, Mongols) had mounted archers.

The Russian War Horse I have is in part related to the Mongols … but there is some other influence in there … Ottoman?

The equitation is what surprised me … not that the snaffle didn’t.

[QUOTE=JER;8389594]
Those are specialist eq horses that go in a headset and jump flat. The pelhams with double reins help maintain that headset.

You can’t really get a true feel on a pelham but if the horse will accept the pelham (I’ve had some who won’t), it can be an effective bit on XC or out hunting if you have strong horse who needs the occasional strong forward correction.[/QUOTE]

Uh, no.

We’ve been retraining my mare as an adult Eq/medal horse - the expectation is that she have as much self carriage as a 1st/2nd level dressage horse through hindend engagement. The Pelham actually forces ME to be be quieter with the reins and ride with a much more independent seat than I could get away with at PT and below eventing, including in my dressage test.

Now that being said, I’m riding with a very old school trainer/judge whose horses go in the ring connected back to front LOL.

The Ancient Greeks also used snaffles, of which quite a few have survived. Xenophon preferred a hinged snaffle to a mullen. But they also rode bareback.

This is a fascinating site. http://www.comitatus.net/cavalryresearch.html

Back in the olden days according to some Victorian era/early 20th Century books, I’ve read, the proper bitting set up for fox-hunting was the double bridle, with two reins of course. The curb was more of an emergency brake instead of a bit for the finer arts of riding, but it was considered essential in the hunting field.

Too bad the cross-country is so technical today. Too bad cross-country today requires so many changes in the length of the rein (like drop fences.) Too bad six year old kids aren’t riding their ponies in a Pelham any more during lessons so they learn how to handles two pairs of reins. The double bridle, in good hands, can be very good at controlling hot, rash, and speedy horses.

Pelhams were mostly for children and ponies.

Snaffles were for jockeys, the Steppe type horsemen (Mongols, etc.,), modern cavalry/field artillery, for some driving horses, for young children and for people who just did not know how to ride. Of course there were not many types of snaffles back then, and many probably were not suitable for a particular horse’s mouth.

As I’ve always understood it, the point of two reins is to NOT ride on the curb, but with contact on the snaffle, adding only as much curb as is needed at the moment (maybe none). That option often seems to be lost in some of the modern bitting set-ups, and perhaps that is what is raising alarm flags.

We also see many UL riders with strong bitting rigs riding on no contact at various points during the course. Some of them seem to use the bitting rig (whatever it is) to remind the horse to stay gathered, and occasionally to steer, but not to continuously hold the horse together. I wonder if “no contact” is a parallel trend to “elaborate bitting”.

I think this is where the philosophy of the more elaborate combination bits hasn’t been clearly expressed in a popular public platform. That is, if there is a unified philosophy among those who use them. Very possibly riders have different concepts and principals, of what they are doing, and how it is working at any given moment.

It is also interesting that many riders who regularly use the combination bits don’t seem to be training toward eventually using one particular bitting set-up on the horse - that is, a destination bit, as it were. “The horse should eventually go in a ___ [snaffle; elevator on the 2nd ring; whatever] .” Instead they continue to modify based on how the horse is going right now, and what they want to do today. I don’t know that this is bad, or good … perhaps just interesting.

This constantly morphing and moving target is going to make it hard to make clear rules - or even to define what is the purpose of the rules. “Preventing harm to the horse” is a great principal but doesn’t have the specifics necessary to apply in particular situations, until AFTER the harm is done.

As has been said, hands are probably more important than bit. Harsher bits become abusive more easily, but they aren’t necessarily harsh in the hands of those who use them best. How is that legislated?

Scroll down to see the what might technically be considered a snaffle here, but would probably be considered a “combination bit” from the 8th/7th century BC: http://www.thecityreview.com/s01cant.html

I don’t know whose Pinterest page this is but there’s a huge and interesting collection of bits you might want to check out. here is one of your Greek snaffles: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/209065607676244382/

I say that partially tongue in cheek, I am sure they used plainer ones too but that’s pretty shocking!

I wonder if “no contact” is a parallel trend to “elaborate bitting”.

One extreme to the other … maybe that’s the reason some are now calling it “extreme eventing” :slight_smile:

Well, the spade bit is really the Spanish Spade and looks a lot like some of the older antique bits at the Spanish Riding School.

And some of those snaffles in different countries were VERY extreme …

[QUOTE=Ibex;8391150]
Uh, no.

We’ve been retraining my mare as an adult Eq/medal horse…[/QUOTE]

Which is to say that she’s not a 6-figure eq horse – at least not at this point in time – like those in the videos.

I have known a number of top (and I mean top nationally) eq kids who were simply not capable of riding with 1st/2nd level engagement. These riders might have learned that later in life but certainly did not have it then. The horses were steady, pricey campaigners who knew the drill. And the kid who rode the most forward with the most engagement didn’t get the highest results of the lot, but has had a stellar career in show jumping.

I’m not saying there’s no place for engagement in eq (I know someone who does adult eq and has horses that go correctly, I’m sure there are more) but I never saw much of it at the junior level. Different priorities, different timelines.

:slight_smile:

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8389181]
And Denny points out that he doesn’t favor the auto release ever on XC and that some of the best of the best, like Mark Todd on Charisma, are never seen using it in pictures. [/QUOTE]

Dunno about the Mark comment TBH - he puts his hands where they need to be at the time:

Crest

Auto

Bit of a back seat rider here… :wink:

Auto

ZOMG! :eek:

B

[QUOTE=Xanthoria;8392475]
Dunno about the Mark comment TBH - he puts his hands where they need to be at the time:

Crest

Auto

Bit of a back seat rider here… :wink:

Auto

ZOMG! :eek:[/QUOTE]

Well, it has been a while since the post so I probably misremembered the exact words, he might well have said something to the effect that the crest release was not too good for Mark Todd and posted several pics of him using it, not claimed he never used anything else ever in his riding career. either way, please don’t blame Denny for my mistake, I am sure it is my error, not his.

His point remains just as relevant to the issue, which is that other people besides GM, and top eventers at that, use and have used and will continue to use the crest release regularly. I remain completely puzzled by anyone who does not respect the excellence of George’s skills. Not everyone likes his style of course, but to doubt his expertise is baffling to me.