I understand perfectly. I just disagree with the premise that the lessee bears all the vet costs
Some have suggested this isn’t always so. Most have argued it is fair.
Is it not possible to understand, but disagree?
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What part do you think I misunderstand?
It appears that the lessee pays for vet costs. In some instances it is expected they act as a substitute owner and pay all vet costs no matter how serious.
In other instances it appears the lessor assumes some of the bigger vet costs if it exceeds a time period.
Is there something else?
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Posters have told you what the industry standards are, and that obviously there’s flexibility wrt specific circumstances.
However, you seem to disagree with the industry’s standard. 
. These comments aren’t arbitrary proclamations, it’s how it works for the most part, in the equine industry.
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That makes sense provided the horse is still of age that it is insurable.
OP, it doesn’t even sound to me like there is a “lease fee” in this case, just paying for board/training/farrier/vet and you are calling it a $25k lease? That’s not how it works. Or is there a $25k fee plus all expenses?
If the person leasing doesn’t need a Third Level horse, then they should lease a much less expensive horse. If they want to lease a schoolmaster so they can learn, they are LUCKY to get a care lease including all costs. I’d expect to pay an additional lease fee on top of all expenses for such a horse, not $25k/year but $10k would probably be fair.
And if they don’t want it, I’ll take it tomorrow! That’s just what a client is looking for and we can’t find one of any breed with a fairly decent budget.
You seem to think that because the rider isn’t of a high level it should lower the value of the horse, which makes zero sense. And I don’t get why you would think a lease arrangement is “unethical”— it is somewhat bizarre. If both parties are happy, it’s just another contract. You don’t like the terms, don’t agree to the deal. No one is forcing you.
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There isn’t a lease fee. Board is $1100, training $800, shoeing $250 for roughly monthly costs. Not counting special feed, cost for turnout, flymask, blanketing, grooming, etc. So yes, just routine maintenance is $25k.
The lessee doesn’t need a 3rd level horse, but it is available in the same barn.
No, I don’t think the rider’s skill level should lower the value of the horse. However, the potential lessee is in the same barn, same trainer and a known entity. I think I would value that as a lessor and adjust the lease terms to make it work for both.
I thought I deleted “unethical” from one of my posts before it posted – there are so many I don’t have time to check, lol. I used “unethical” but then decided that wasn’t quite it. I was thinking along the lines of what a good deal it is for the lessor to require the lessee to pay for all the costs of maintaining an older horse, right as older horses start to develop problems. But if that is okay with the lessee, it is not unethical.
Folks, I appreciate everyone’s input. Even those who are telling me what I am thinking and what my intentions are. But I can hardly keep up with the comments and am going to have to respond slowly or bail. I will keep you posted on the final outcome though!
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The lessee would be paying that $25k in costs for any horse she leased or owned, even a cheap horse. If she wants a horse in that program, it kind of is what it is.
I think that the lessee is, in fact, getting quite the bargain if she’s allowed to have a care lease on a nice, safe Third Level horse. She’s basically not having to pay the $10k or whatever is appropriate for an annual lease on a Third Level horse. I could care lease this horse out tomorrow to at least 3 people in my barn!
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You are free to disagree with the premise all you like, but the fact is that is how most leases work. I can disagree with the idea of paying for damages to my leased car if I didn’t cause them, but I’m still going to have to pay.
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Wait what? You were saying there was a lease fee originally. Covering routine expenses is not a lease fee. That is a free lease / care lease and is an amazing opportunity for a Third Level horse. The issue now seems to be it is a free lease / care lease at a fairly expensive facility that charges for things like blanketing, etc. I’ve never heard of a barn that charges a fee for turnout, on top of a substantial board fee. Is that normal in your area?
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Why should she pay for any lease, care or otherwise, if she only wants a few rides with no financial responsibility? Lesson horses do exist.
*Pros get paid to train and exercise, I would never pay an Ammy to ride my schoolmaster.
Every lease contract is different, if this one doesn’t suit or is too expensive, move on.
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You ask what happens if the horse is injured or becomes ill.
Whatever the two parties agree to ahead of time, and put into the lease. That is why it is important to have a written lease.
But you also ask what is TYPICAL (see the title of the thread).
TYPICALLY, either side can cancel the lease on 30 days notice.
TYPICALLY the person leasing is responsible for all expenses, including veterinary and insurance.
Often (but I hesitate to say typically), if the horse is seriously injured, the owner wants to take over the veterinary decision-making, and costs, because they are more concerned about the long term prognosis than the person leasing.
But, as I said, you and the owner can work out whatever terms work for both of you.
If you goggle it, there are a number of sample lease contracts available on the web, and you can look at them for the range of what is “typical”.
ETA I just googled
horse lease agreement
and got at least a dozen sample contracts
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If the rider only wants to ride a 2-3 times a week, she could see if it was possible to do a half lease, sharing the costs and the riding days with another rider in the program. I have seen this work, but in the cases I am familiar with the horses were owned by the trainer, who did this routinely for her students and made decisions about and oversaw the horses’ care. Half lease was a fixed fee for each rider intended to cover board, routine vet and farrier, and a little profit for trainer assuming horse stays sound. Trainer/owner took the risk of long term health and soundness. Horses were at a variety of levels, from dead quiet school ponies to 3rd/4th level, matched with students riding at or close to the horse’s level. Riders were each required to take weekly lesson (so a little more income) and had two other days for “practice rides” on property doing whatever they had permission to do independently (WTC and lateral work, transitions, practicing tests, etc.) but horse/riders were not in full training. They each “owned” certain days of the week, but could trade if both agreed. It worked for this trainer and a number of her students. Some of these students used leasing as a step toward first time horse ownership, others did not. Some students did this when their own horse needed time off, when they were between horses, home from college for the summer, etc. Occasionally the trainer also found leasers for an owner who was unable to ride, under similar terms.
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I am even more confused about what your “friend” is being asked to pay.
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I have leased out my mare to my coach’s students to learn on. I’m currently putting her back together after her beginner lessee let her run around like a giraffe for a month and a half. Nothing I could do about it, she just couldn’t really ride. But, she was leasing the mare so she could ride a calm, steady-eddy type to learn on. And I needed to lease her out because I had a giant vet bill to pay. It was a mutually beneficial arrangement, but that doesn’t mean I offered any discounts.
Did the lessee improve? Yes. Did my horse improve? No. Was the lessee a known quantity? Yes. Did I still charge her the full fee plus expenses? Absolutely. Did I adjust the fee for the last month when she had to leave a week early this spring? Yes. And that was the only adjustment I made to the fee. No friend discount. No current student discount. My costs and efforts do not change simply because I know the person. The mare still needed shoes, board, a coggins, and now a few weeks of my sweat equity to get her back to where she was fitness and training-wise.
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I haven’t heard of a turnout fee in my area, either, although I’m on the eastern seaboard of the U.S., and I know that turnout is different (and there is often less land for it) out west, particularly in California. It sounds like the extra fee is for boarders who aren’t around enough to turn the horses out themselves, rotate blankets or spray for flies, or groom regularly?
I think the example @enjoytheride made as typical of a lease on a horse of this level re: vet expenses is a good one (again, every contract is different, but…). Horse gets a gas colic, vet is called, that is paid by the fulltime leaser. Colic turns out to be more serious, then it’s in the owner’s court, and the lease likely will end at the end of the month, because the horse will require some serious rehab.
I’ve also heard of some owners, though, just charging a lease fee but wanting to make all vet-related decisions themselves (except for standard vaccinations) just because they want to make sure a leaser doesn’t nickel and dime on care.
But it sounds like your objection OP isn’t being charged an additional fee, but routine vet care on top of paying all of the horse’s expenses?
Is this a month-to-month lease, or for a specified period of time with an end date?
I mean, you could essentially “free lease” any horse by going to the local auction, picking one up for $200, and now you have a horse in your paid for training stall that you can lesson on to your heart’s content.
Oh, you want one that can do more than be a lower level retraining project where you have to do all the work?
That would be where the lease fee comes in.
ON TOP OF the care costs.
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Leases come in all shapes and sizes. The important thing is that both parties understand the costs and obligations and feel good about it! I care leased an older MADE hunter for 5 years. This horse was a metronome with the most lovely change I’ve ever ridden. Seriously… don’t shift your weight or you’d get tempi changes. He made me want to show and introduced me to the bug that is competing. I adored him. I paid board, supplements, shoeing, routine vet, chiro, joint injections yearly and miscellaneous vet bills like stitches or small emergencies. Loved that horse for years. 6 days a week I rode. Owner carried the insurance. When he colicked at 26 years old owner who had insurance on him opted for surgery. I finished out my 6 months of the end of that years lease hand walking and loving on him every day. No riding. At the end of the 6 months he was retired. He died 1 1/2 later at his retirement farm. Still tear up thinking about that lovely lovely boy. It was an honor and a gift to lease him. If you don’t feel that way …. Just lesson 3 days a week
Edited to add… said horse had a wicked spook. Did not bother my Khardashian Velcro behind. Never did it on show grounds but you were guaranteed to get a sideways levitation on the trail or in the barn ring once a week. And for nonsense lol. A little butterfly could fart in his general direction and he’d leap sideways. It was a perfect trade off for the HONOR and ability to ride a truly magnificent horse. His owner was never interested in selling him. Just giving him a situation where he was used and active and loved. We hunter paced. We fox hunted we trail rode. We showed at Tampa Equestrian Festival while it was still a thing. I consider myself so lucky that the owner allowed me the years to grow and learn on that horse. And what I want to yell at myself when I see that picture is heels down ! Lol. And “I miss you beyond measure, Albert”. He was a dream.
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Wouldn’t any of those types of major medical issues be covered under the medical insurance the owner has on the horse? The lessee might pay the deductible ( or as per contract) I would imagine?
Just asking as I have no experience with horse insurance but I would imagine a horse owner leasing a good one out would have it.
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O yesss indeed, it is possible to understand what they constantly are harping on about, and yet still disagree. I happen to agree with you by the way. There is a feeling of wrongness to it for me.
