What are typical lease terms for 3rd level off-breed horse?

[enjoytheride]

@BlueDrifter

I have not misunderstood. I hear what you guys are saying. My eyes are opened. I think it isn’t fair to the lessee to pick up ALL VET COSTS.

For reference, today I checked with a local olympian barn as to how they do their leases – and, for them, the owner pays the vet fees. It is a way the owner insure the health of their horse is taken care of properly.

Which brings up a second question that I am almost afraid to ask, but here goes:

How does the owner keep tabs on the lessee keeping up with routine care and potentially rehab care? Does the owner make the (non-emergency) vet call appts and the lessee pays? Does the lessee make them and then submit proof to owner? Just curious as to how it works.

You have absolutely misunderstood.

I think quite a lot of people have told you that there is usually a set limit on vet expenses. Not a single person has told you the lessee has to have an open checkbook. The person leasing doesn’t pay all rehab expenses for ever and ever as you seem to think despite all the explanations. Using the owner’s farrier isn’t an advantage that deserve a break. People have been quite clear about that. That is what is aggravating, that you keep not understanding that. Honestly if you don’t agree to the terms of most leases then buy your own horse.

As I have explained to you, the people leasing my horses pay for their board/feed, foot care, shots and coggins, injections, and any minor emergency care. If the horse is lame then I expect them to let me know the vet is coming out and let me know what the vet decided. If it’s something like an abscess then they would pay for it. If it’s something like a bowed tendon then once they’ve diagnosed it the lease ends and the horse comes back to me. The lease contract has a set max of the horse value if for example the horse dies in their care due to neglect. They aren’t paying me on top of that.

[Angela_Freda]

It depends.
Everyone has said to you, it depends on the arrangement made, on the contract.
In some cases it can be negotiated.

Don’t like it, go buy your own.

[BigMama1]

@BlueDrifter

All I am saying is that asking the lessee to have an open checkbook on all vet costs doesn’t seem fair to me. I am not questioning the need to do routine vet care, board, training, and the like.

I do think a lessor might charge/want more if the horse is taken off premises or shown or different trainer or shoer.

I do think it is an advantage for the lessor, if the lessee is on the property, uses same farrier/trainer, and is a known entitiy vs a stranger. I think some consideration might be given for that.

Why is that hard for people to understand?

It’s hard to understand because people keep explaining most leases don’t require the leaser to have an open check book for ALL vet expenses, yet you keep harping on that point. As for fairness - if someone doesn’t think the terms of a contract are fair, they don’t sign it.

As for consideration for a known entity on property be a stranger off property, it sounds like in your example consideration has been given for that as the owner is not charging a lease fee.

[Arlomine]

Regarding lease fees…
I think it’s bears mentioning that a horse who has training, even to second level and certainly above, represents a significant investment to achieve that training. That investment can be wrecked in just a few ignorant/incorrect rides. The owner of the horse is taking a huge risk that the Characteristics that create that horse’s value could be erased. Even if the owner is going to return to riding the horse themselves, and has no intention of selling the horse ever… The training can be altered in a terrible way, sometimes irretrievably. For example in JumpingHorses, the horse can be worth 150 K, have some bad rides and within a week develop a stopping problem. The horse is now worth practically nothing.
It is more than fair to expect the lessee to financially compensate for some of that risk. It doesn’t even come close to covering it.

[BlueDrifter]

No disagreement there

[BlueDrifter]

I think the horse is at the end of it’s competition life and owner’s are looking for a soft landing.

But in general, when folks lease a horse, I am guessing it is usually at a higher level? So they can improve? In which case, the risk of the horse losing some skills is likely. The mitigation for this is to have the trainer ride 2x a week – but yes, I agree the horse will lose some training.

Do others expect their horse will improve when it is leased out?

[Angela_Freda]

@BlueDrifter

Do others expect their horse will improve when it is leased out?

Sure. Either because the leasor takes lessons, or is a more accomplished rider.

I had a leasor who rode during the day, a couple days a week while her kid was in school. She focused on Dressage.
I later rode him on the flat and over fences the same days. He was much sharper and rideable.

My friend free leased her horse to me. She was a young horse starting jumping, but I only wanted to do some basic dressage. Again, my flatwork definitely improved her progress with her main rider.

Improved training and fitness are two benefits that are possible.

[NC001]

Well saying that some barns the owner pays the vet expenses in a lease agreement… while the lessee may not pay them directly they will likely be paying indirectly. Many barn advertise certain lease rates but the details determine how much you will actually be paying.

I have an easy going rideable 2nd level horse and if you didn’t feel lucky as hell to have the opportunity to lease her I wouldn’t to you. Stop with the poor lessee is stuck with all the risk and has to pay so much. It is a GIFT to get to ride an easy well trained horse much less get to do it with a care lease! If you don’t feel that way do not lease. Stick with lesson horses.

Go horse shopping and see what you can find and what you would have to pay to get it and where to keep it. You may change your attitude quickly. It is hard in many areas to find an open boarding spot at a quality barn. And you will uncover a world of expenses associated with horses you never knew existed. How much do you think it will run just to buy all the new tack you need for a horse.

[Jealoushe]

@BlueDrifter

But the risks for the owner seem very low with the lessee footing the bill for any injuries or unsoundness, requiring the lessee work with existing trainers who can oversee anything going south, and likely the owner not leasing to someone for whom injury would be likely. (Now in H/J I can see that jumping is an inherent risk, but for dressage?

Our very wonderful ammie friendly solid 2nd level mare was leased out 2 years ago and didn’t come home, and never will. She died in their care. So I disagree. the risk is extremely high for owners, especially when the horse is a huge part of your family and dearly loved.

[BlueDrifter]

Not directed at you, NCOO1, but there are so many posts that I can’t follow.

But what I can’t believe how people misinterpret what I say. Or maybe project and read into what they think I say.

I have never once said that the lessee doesn’t think it is a privilege to ride someone else’s horse. What I said – and what BigMama1 thinks I am harping about – is that I don’t think it is fair they have the entire burden of vet costs.

(And the reason I keep harping is because somehow, everyone keeps thinking I am saying a version of “one doesn’t need to pay for a leased horse.” Go back and look, I never said that.)

It is a privilege to ride someone else’s horse and it is also privilege for the owner to find a great lessee who will take care of the horse as it would their own. Apparently many lessees don’t, which is why the owner takes a great risk in leasing their horse in the first place, and why they should be happy if they find a perfect lessee.

So the contract needs to be beneficial for both, and FOR ME, I think it is unreasonable to expect the lessee pays all vet bills.

Now this discussion has migrated from “of course the lessee has to pay all the costs, that is what leasing is about” to “well, most leases have exceptions for catastrophic vet bills” <-- and I agree completely with that, and the definition of catastrophic can be by dx or by rehab time or whatever they agree upon.

NC001 Your comments about “I may change my attitude quickly” begs the question of what you think my attitude is.

I live in an expensive area, I know the costs of buying a horse. Our barn has purchased three recently, all 65K - 115K. I understand the advantage of not having to pay for a horse or it’s training. I also know the cost of tack. Really, those comments are condescending and not necessary.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

So what vet bills do you think are unreasonable for a leaser to pay (with a full lease)?

[Angela_Freda]

@BlueDrifter

I don’t think it is fair they have the entire burden of vet costs.

So lease a horse that you don’t have to.
Because, as has been stated several times, not all lease agreements are the same.
.

[NC001]

Sounds like you have it all figured out.

Buy a horse and then you can have the entire burden of all the vest costs… and everything else.

[meupatdoes]

I did a free lease (i.e., lessee paid all care costs but did not pay a lease fee on top) to a good riding ammy who wanted a horse to show and didn’t mind showing a greener horse.

She didn’t pay a lease fee but the horse shows she took him too would have cost about $15k on top of board and training, and how well she did with him proved his value in the high 5s.

[enjoytheride]

What vet expenses are you calling unreasonable?

Pretty much everyone has told you that major medical bills defer back to the owner and someone leasing isn’t going to pay for extended rehab.

[BigMama1]

@BlueDrifter

So the contract needs to be beneficial for both, and FOR ME, I think it is unreasonable to expect the lessee pays all vet bills.

So what is the point of continuing to say that? I’d you think that’s unreasonable, then don’t enter into a lease agreement where that is a condition.

[ZELLA]

I can speak to the insurance aspects of leased horses. For starters, no carrier will knowingly insure a horse that already is insured. A choice must be made as to whether the lessor or lessee will carry the insurance. Most carriers will allow either party to hold the insurance policy.

A policy in the lessee’s name lists the lessor as loss payee for mortality coverage. Medical claims would be settled as the parties’ interests appear, guided by the terms of the lease itself. It’s important to realize that an insurer won’t necessarily agree to transfer the policy solely to the lessor/losspayee if the lease terminates prior to the policy expiration. A lessor should not expect the lessee’s insurance policy to continue to cover the horse in any way if the lease is terminated.

It might be preferable for the lessor to carry the insurance policy. When this is the case, the lessor often will include the cost of insurance as part of the lease fee arrangement. You should ask your agent if the lessee also can be listed on the policy with a limited interest, if there is a desire for insurance medical reimbursement to go directly to the lessee. When the lessor insures the horse, they absolutely know the premium was paid, and the policy is in force. They also get to continue a medical claim that might have been started while the horse was with the lessee and continues after the lease was broken/terminated/expired.

Leases are written in a variety of ways, with or without fees. It’s best if they outline an agreed value of the horse, which should be the same as the purchase price, if that’s an option in the contract. The lease should detail who is responsible for routine maintenance as well as unexpected vet care needed due to injury or illness. It should address what impact injury or illness might have. Is the lessee obligated to provide rehab to pre-injury soundness? What if that’s not possible? Is there a refund of the fee if the horse is unsound or the lease is terminated early? The lease should identify who pays expenses that insurance doesn’t cover. If the horse has known prior health conditions, those should be addressed. For instance, a lease for a horse with Cushing’s might have a requirement to keep the horse on Prascend, identify who pays for that, and it might impose no penalty or responsibiliy to the lessee if metabolic-related laminitis occurs.

[Cowgirl]

But when you own a horse, you accept that these are the risks of participation. Same with someone leasing the horse. The only difference would be the high cost of the initial investment (whether training over many years or the cost of the horse or both). If a horse goes lame while you are leasing it, even if it is a pasture accident, you buy out your lease because you assumed a certain risk. OR and I mean a big OR you pay a percentage of the horse’s value to lease the horse and transfer the risk of a pasture or training injury to the owner. Owners have to be really desperate to do a care lease on a horse.

[enjoytheride]

Desperate Isn’t that nice of you.

Horses I care leased out with a contract

1. Elderly 3rd level dressage horse to teach small children and handicap people to ride

2. Pasture companion for someone who’s other horse was alone

3. Horse that didn’t like eventing but thought it might like endurance.

No reason they couldn’t sit in my field instead but to call me desperate?

[BigMama1]

@Cowgirl

Owners have to be really desperate to do a care lease on a horse.

I totally disagree with this. I have leased out and been the leader of a few horses on a care lease. Owner may not be able to ride themselves for a variety of reasons, t don’t want the horse sitting idle. Owner may not be able to afford full board for a variety of reasons, but wants to maintain control of where horse goes and not risk it falling into a bad situation. Horse may be elderly or have ish dress issues which prevent it from full work, but may be ideal as a therapy horse or happy hacker. There are many reasons to do a care lease which - as the OP pointed out - does not necessarily mean it’s cheap for the leaser.