That’s horrifying, and a true cautionary tale!
I would never, ever lease out my homebred for any reason.
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EXACTLY the scenario I referenced in one of my posts. The OP doesn’t get it, and apparently has no interest in getting it. With a dressage horse it could be totally and irretrievably wrecked changes, piaffe, even halts.
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I can’t blame you for not reading all the threads, because there are too many for me, too. But to say the “OP doesn’t get it?”
Honestly, how did you reach that conclusion? Did you read all the comments?
Where have I said that I don’t know the risks of leasing one’s horse?
But really, who out there will lease their horse to someone, with terms that would permit someone to “irretrievably wreck a horse’s changes, piaffes, and halts?” I assume owners screen their potential lessees?
Lessees should pay for the privilege, never said they shouldn’t. It was just the open checkbook for all vet costs, that, at the risk of “ad nauseum” harping - I felt should be a shared risk. And somewhere in the midst of those threads, it does come to light that terms usually DO have shared risk – but initially the tenor was that the lessee beared all the burden.
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I admire you for not parrying back on the personal attacks and your stalwart ability to bring the conversation back away from the fringes. And, i agree with you about vet bills.
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Can you at least show us who said that the lessee pays all vet bills forever? People have told you quite a few times that this never happens. Once again, contracts typically have a set price detailing what the lessee pays for, what happens if the horse gets injured, etc.
If you feel like you should lease a 3rd level dressage horse and not be responsible for a single vet expense, then don’t sign those contracts.
Not a single person has said you need to have an open checkbook.
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Why is it a shared risk though?
I own the asset. If I loan you my saddle, and while it’s in your care some horse gets loose and knocks it off a saddle rack in the crossties - that’s still on you to fix it because it happened while you were using the item.
You don’t just give me back a broken saddle and say “that’s horses right? I didn’t drop it so it’s your problem.”
If I loan you my horse and it colics and dies, I just lost my asset that you were using. You lost a board bill. How is that my responsibility?
My horse (before I bought him) was leased for a week to a reputable program to be tried for sale, which isn’t uncommon in the h/j set. He came back with an “oops, we don’t really like him” as well as a stopping problem and you couldn’t get within 20 feet of him with a fly spray bottle. They apparently said the sellers had lied and he was a stopper (which he wasn’t).
Anytime you let someone borrow your thing, you’re already taking the risk that someone breaks your thing because in the end it’s still yours.
If I leased him to someone else right now, absolutely any and everything that happened while he was “theirs” would be on them. They have a definitive end date to their bills and I don’t. That’s my risk in all this.
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I’m still not sure what specific type of vet bills you consider unreasonable. All vet bills? Just catastrophic ones? Are you concerned about the horse being injured under your watch, giving it back, and then being charged for more damages? You just keep saying you don’t want to be an “open checkbook,” yet a number of posters have noted how leasing out their horse ultimately was a financial loss, due to issues which arose when the horse wasn’t in their care.
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Of course they screen, but the exercises listed can be made problematic fairly easily.
Read the thread here “Flying Changes Hell…” about changes for an example of one.
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Screening helps but you can’t screen for everything. Leaser changes trainers, leaser goes to a clinic and gets overfaced, leaser goes to a show and the course design is messed up, horse gets turned out with the wrong fieldmate and into infinity.
When someone has leased your horse, its on your terms. Its not about what’s ‘fair’ for the leaser, but about what is best for the horse and owner who will be left with the fallout if anything goes wrong. The leaser is always the one with the freedom to walk away whether at the beginning if the contractual terms don’t suit, the middle via whatever escape clause exists, or the end by simply not renewing the lease. The owner and horse are always the ones who suffer the fallout. Example? I know one recently with a senior pony that was leased for the year for a child learn the ropes of the pony hunters. On course, first show of the year, the pony landed from a fence and was immediately 3 legged lame with something serious soft tissue wise. Will the pony recover? I don’t think anyone knows. But regardless of the initial vet fees, there’s an owner with an injured pony that needs rehabbing and only one party gets the option to wash their hands of it if they choose.
The burden is always primarily on the owner and horse. Accepting negotiated terms may that include taking on all expenses including vet care during the lease doesn’t assign undue burden to the leaser. They choose to accept the terms for access to the horse in question. When the horse is high value enough that a lease fee above and beyond the costs of care? That’s the owners compensation for taking the risk that the horse will come back less valuable than they were when they left, for any reason. That fee is also often the horse’s ‘retirement fund’ as well.
TLDR: If one doesn’t want to be responsible for all the care costs of someone else’s horse via lease, there’s no problem with buying one’s own or waiting to find someone with more acceptable terms. But expecting the norm to be the equivalent of borrowing someone’s car, rear-ending someone or getting rear-ended and then returning it to say “Hey, your car your problem, its not like I own it”? That’s not going to happen
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Specifically, what vet bills do you think that a lessee should not have to pay? You’re the only other poster who has objected to lease contracts but you haven’t specified what it is you actually object to. All vet bills? All farrier bills? Major medical? Maintenance? Shots and Coggins? I haven’t seen a single person say the lessee needs to have an open check book, which is what you and the OP seem to think
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oh i think i did actually. please goto post number 145
So the only thing you object to is maintenance medications? Everything else is fine?
I assume the post below is the post you wanted people to reference?
This is post 145, that is why I ask if post above is what you wanted us to refernce.
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I guess the million dollar question is whether owners would rather have all of their costs covered or lease a horse to someone extra special.
I already know I’m not an extra special enough rider to add value to an upper level horse; anyone leasing it to me at cost is probably doing me a favor already without my asking them to lose money on the deal.
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In my own experience, doing a care lease (not a riding one) the horse had lots of medical issues and required a lot of care. I was not expecting to do that much care, but I did appreciate having the companion horse when I needed it, and I loved the horse. For myself, and seeing how people ride, abuse horses, don’t do the maintenance, and board their horses without regularly checking on them, I would not put one of my horses in someone else’s care UNLESS (as was in my case) it was with a very close friend and I could check on the horse regularly. With respect to one of my trained dressage horses, no. I take very careful care of my horses. A care lease for riding just sets my horse up to be overused, being ridden without proper warmup, being shown too much, etc. I have seen this before where the horse was a retired FEI horse and the care lease was for up to second level. Then you see that the leasing person is riding at PSG level. My semi retired FEI horse is entitled to a retirement and not to be ridden over the level that is fair at the time. I just have seen too much.
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So the only thing you object to is maintenance medications? The OP is stating that she objects to open checks, which I’ve never seen in a single lease and isn’t the type of lease that anyone here has described to her.
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If you’re getting the benefit of the maintenance, which is needed because of the continued wear and tear of your riding, why should the owner pay for it?
I’ve definitely provided horses to ride for free where it benefited me as an owner. But I wouldn’t give someone exclusive use and continue to foot bills that are to the leaser’s benefit in that case.
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I struggle with the quote function on here, but re: screening the riders- of course riders are screened. But I doubt someone is going to walk up to a horse owner and say “hey, I struggle with lead changes, so I will probably drill your horse and get mad at him when it doesn’t work and possibly destroy the change”- it just doesn’t work like that. Barring someone you have known and ridden alongside for a long time, it may be difficult to get a read on character. People also tend to misrepresent their abilities. Anytime you’re not in full control of the situation, there is risk.
Also, back the initial point of the rider “not needing” a competitive 3rd level horse- the value of the horse does not decrease just because the rider doesn’t plan to take advantage of its level of training. I have had people try to negotiate on horse prices based on their only wanting to trail ride. In that case, one should seek a horse for sale or lease with a more limited skill set, more appropriate for their intended use (and at a more appropriate price).
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I assume by this you meant, for free? And not without no contract at all?
Yes. A care lease means the person is responsible for the care and maintenance of the horse without an additional monthly fee on top.
Yes. I always have a contract even with a care/free lease.
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So the owner spent 6 months trying to fix him, but he hasn’t put a foot wrong since he came to you (from them)? Why am I suspicious that it was not just the one week lease that caused the stopping?
However, yes things happen especially in off property leases.
