What are your expectations for full training board?

[dmveventer]

I think your program sounds unusually organized, not just in comparison to H/J. I’m a former hunter turned eventer, my barn doesn’t do any group lessons but I still don’t see any reason for my trainers to keep a strict schedule of training rides. Most training rides take place in the middle of the day while boarders are at work so the trainers can teach lessons in the afternoons. We all know horses can be unpredictable, I want my trainers to be able to make changes to the schedule as things come up. If the horse before mine throws a shoe they should be able to grab mine early and keep going; if they knew I was planning to observe that day they can grab another horse early and my session might start a little late, no problem. And I want them to be able to take care of their own needs too if they need to take a longer break or take a personal call or something. I could ask them for detailed updates if I wanted to but they do a good job keeping me informed, and most progress doesn’t happen fast enough to need updates more than once a week or so anyway.

I try to treat my trainers as professionals the same way I want to be treated at my job. No micro-managing, respect that I know what I’m doing, let me handle my own schedule, don’t set up unnecessary hoops to jump through if everything is going well. As long as things are trending in the right direction and lines of communication are open I’m willing to let them do whatever works best for them.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I agree that the ideal is having the ability to at least watch some of the training rides, if possible. It’s educational for the rider as well as the horse. At the dressage barn where I rode, sometimes clients would watch a training session, ride the horse for a very tiny portion of it, and then have the trainer explain what she was doing. There were also training sessions, of course, that were done on a more flexible schedule without the owner watching.

I think for many training operations, there just isn’t the logistical organizing to have a rigid schedule–either the personality of the trainers or the needs of the horse. That doesn’t mean the trainer is bad. The downside, however, is if the barn is really coming apart at the seams, a few sessions cut short because the horse was being good and things needed to be ended on a positive note…lead to training sessions becoming shorter and shorter, versus what was agreed to, or working students end up taking over the rides versus the actual trainers, or horses being used in lessons…cutting corners can becoe a spiral.

Ultimately, there has to be some trust that this won’t happen. I think the best thing is to be a “present” owner, but don’t micromanage. Don’t spy, but ask questions and be mindful.

[danhelm441]

@fivestrideline

Progress is never linear, and moving to a new program can feel like three huge steps back. I do wonder if OP has mostly trained this horse themselves so far - which is great, but IME the intermediate owner trained, kept at home horses take a big learning curve of just Life Skills when they are put into a professional program. It’s a different routine, and these horses are learning far more than WTC and jump - they’re learning patience and ground manners and how to be ridden in traffic and stand in the middle of the ring while horses canter and jump by.

I know that’s true… I think out of necessity, as a kind of survival mechanism, I got into a habit of sticking to a very strict routine with my horse, and in fairness, it’s almost at the point of being a superstitious ritual. So I understand my horse has a lot to learn about settling into the program. But yeah, it’s hard not to want to jump in and be like, oh XYZ isn’t going to work for my horse, we always do ABC. Also, I always warm up on the lunge before riding, and I never realized what a dirty word “lunge” was in the h/j world. To me, it seems totally fair to want to do 10-15 min to level set and check all the buttons (few though they may be) before getting on, and make sure we are on the same page. It seems less fair to grab him from the stall, saddle up, and expect him to go and get right to work (as nice and convenient as that would be). But yeah, you would think I was a horse abuser based on the reaction to saying/suggesting that. I still don’t think it’s abuse or wrong, and I think they would be setting him up for a more successful training session by doing it first, but if the end result is I can have a horse I just show up and ride without a second thought, I can see how there’s a real upside to that too—same with one that will go to sleep in the cross ties while I socialize.

[fivestrideline]

@danhelm441

But yeah, you would think I was a horse abuser based on the reaction to saying/suggesting that.

I hope this was a misunderstanding- a lot of people lunge like maniacs to “get the bucks out” and that’s not ideal. I don’t think this is what you do OP, but maybe it’s what they heard. Personally I’d rather hop on and walk for 10 minutes and see what horse I have, but I find lunging to be an extra step (and time consuming!) that I only use occasionally.

Lunging in a full ring can also be very dangerous. I hope the conversation just came across wrong vs being so attacking as it might have felt. Horse people can be very blunt.

[Tha_Ridge]

From reading this post, I think you need to take a deep breath and step away. H/J people lunge plenty, but lunging before every ride seems very excessive. You admitted upthread that you’re intermediate-ish, so I don’t think you’re qualified to tell your trainers how to set your horse up for a successful training session. Good trainers welcome questions and feedback, but can just as soon become bristling and defensive when they have to justify every single thing they do or deal with clients who think they know better.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I’ve seen plenty of lunging at both hunter, Pony Club, and dressage barns, but if lessons are going on at the same time, it can be logistically difficult. I’ve had my lessons stopped briefly at some barns or moved to another ring because a young, explosive horse was going to be lunged. Also, if the ring is set up for jumping, this can also make it difficult for other people riding.

ETA: I would be very surprised if they think lunging is “evil,” just probably something they don’t think should be a habit–OR maybe it’d just not something that works with the ring use/setup at the time. The fact there wasn’t communication about why they were opposed suggests that maybe you should ask more questions when you talk to them BUT then step back and let them do their thing and manage their barn as they see fit in the interim.

[BlueDrifter]

Interesting. I have had several dressage trainers as I moved for my career, but they all seemed to work the same. Always a schedule board with what horse is being worked what day/time.

Sure there are allowances for personal time, horses needing more/less time, injuries, weather, etc., and everyone goes with the flow. No micro-managing, no expectations of how it should be.

However, the dressage trainers are in SoCal, and at barns where the facility management takes care of arenas, grooms take care of turnout, farriers don’t need someone to hold horses, owners tend to do their own vet injuries. I would say half the riders are retired or in careers that allow flexibility at the barn.

If I were a trainer, I am not sure how I would manage my job if I didn’t start out with a weekly schedule!

[endlessclimb]

I’m going to be blunt here -

You, and these set-in-stone routines and hover-parenting and rituals, are part of this horse’s problem.

Take a step back and let the professionals do what professionals do. Be there occasionally to observe and answer questions if you’re asked. But you’re micromanaging, and need to back off.

[findeight]

Guys, each barn in any discipline has its own, individual culture, program and protocols. These are based on their operational experience, client base needs and staff needs.

Just because your Dressage barn does it this way doesn’t mean every D barn operates the same way or that every HJ barn is different. Heck, you could walk into a Reining barn and find it operates the same way as a HJ barn. Only thing different is jumps and all they entail.

The relationship between client and trainer- things like training rides and schedules-needs to be discussed. No matter if you go in circles, jump or do sliding stops. Nothing to do with discipline.

For OP, IMO, it is better to train your horse not to depend on the pre ride lunge, part of what you are paying them to do. Relax and let them train.

They likely don’t think of lunging as evil, just want to minimize it and starting every session with small circles. Plus maybe avoid being the subject of yet another thread claiming they train by LTD and HJ barns depend on LTD.

Perception can be everything. At the expense of reality.

[dmveventer]

@danhelm441

It seems less fair to grab him from the stall, saddle up, and expect him to go and get right to work

This is totally normal, and a pretty basic life skill I expect most horses to have, even young ones. Your trainers have a whole toolbox to use to quickly evaluate where your horse is on a given day from the saddle, without the extra wear and tear of putting him on the lunge.

OP I say this kindly but it does sound like you may have been (unintentionally) stressing your horse out before rides and creating some of these problems. It happens, especially since it sounds like you and your horse are both inexperienced which can be tough, and hopefully this training program will help get you both on the right track. You may need to let go of some of your routines and things you think you know so far though and be open to the idea that there might be better ways to approach your horse and your riding.

Are you taking lessons right now? If not that’s definitely something to work into the training plan down the line.

[Jsalem]

I love your bluntness!
True Story: We had someone bring us a horse for training. This person had run a program themselves in another state. They insist on watching the first training ride, fine. We tack the horse in a loose ring snaffle and my rider gets to work. Client starts a running critique in the full viewing area about the bit choice, contact, transitions she’s doing, etc. She’s going on and on- I don’t know why they’re doing this or doing that… My rider quietly approaches me at the far end of the ring and says, “Is it okay if I dismount and quietly decline to participate in this?” I said, “Yup”.
This client got a stern talking to. We’re happy to work with your horse, but this is our training program. We don’t work this way.

[fivestrideline]

OP you sound like a caring and thoughtful owner who wants to learn. That’s great! And I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had bad experiences before - I have too, and it can make you overcompensate and hover.

That said, I think taking some steps back and letting the pros do their jobs is in your best interest and that of your horse. Trust, but verify. Ask good questions, but don’t question everything.

Ask yourself this: do you like the way the other horses in this barn are trained and behave? Do you want your horse to go the way they do, both under saddle and on the ground? Do you see other riders there and think you’d like to learn to ride like them? If so, trust the process.

As someone who rides and handles a little bit of everything, I’ll tell you that it’s super common to have an owner come tell me that their horse has XYZ routine, won’t stand at the mounting block, hates fly spray, won’t go in the wash rack, or doesn’t jump flowers, as I stand there with their horse that did all of those things with zero fuss just yesterday.

We ammy owners with one or two horses tend to create our own problems - my personal horse gets away with tons of things I don’t usually let slide! At the same time, I can get him to do other things that he won’t for most people. It’s a two-sided coin.

If you like this program and the horses it produces, it’s fine to take some time and let everything settle. If you want more details about the routine or how things work, ask during your next lesson! Just explain that you’re not questioning the process, you just really like to know as much as possible because you’re learning too and don’t want to get in the way.

[danhelm441]

Thanks for your understanding answer. It’s hard not to rankle at the advice to step back and leave it to the professionals, because I did that before and my horse was worse off for it. I did learn from my mistakes and chose better this time. But I also learned a lot in the intervening time when I was on my own with my horse. No I’m not an expert, and yes I need help, but I put the time in and I was consistent, and at the end of the day have a horse that I can safely w/t/c, which is not nothing given the horse’s history. But I can also see that some of my solutions are patchwork, and they will have to rip out some stitches to get to a place where he can progress.

At the end of the day, this program produces good, reliable horses who know their jobs, which is all I could want. So far, it’s been going okay and communication has been good. It’s hard to step back and trust the process, especially when I hear about things coming up that I’ve worked through before and think I have the answer to, but I am doing it. I mean, like the knitting analogy, it’s deeply unfun to watch someone undo your work, but I get that it’s necessary to get back to the pattern. That said, I just don’t know that I am ever going to be that hands-off, blind trust in the pro type of owner again.

[findeight]

Nobody is asking you to blindly trust them.

Merely try to point out maybe the lunging before every single ride is how YOU go best. Trust the horse a little too. Give him a chance to learn from different teachers and lose the dependence on lunging which can be hard on joints and inconvenient, if not impossible at shows and such. Can get to be a crutch in a riders mind more then a horse issue. BTDT.

Vaguely recall you sharing your journey over some time and that there were often red flags waving. Give this a chance, keep in touch but let them train and teach you as well as the horse. Keep an open mind. Remember its only what you learn after you think you know it all that counts.

[quietann]

I’m going to second those who say, back off and let the trainers do their thing for a bit. Be present but not critical. Ask questions if you need to. Try to distinguish between your own anxiety and actual red flags. Visit once a week, get a summary of what’s been done that week, and step back a bit.

Personal experience, again at a dressage barn… I became afraid to ride my mare shortly after purchasing her in 2008. She was, at the time, a bit too much horse for me, and I’d just turned her life upside down as she went from 24/7 out in a herd of horses she knew, to typical New England 8 hours in individual turnout, the rest in a stall where she could not touch other horses. She also had some training holes we did not know about.

I really liked her, so I decided to put her into full training for 6 months. In the first week, the trainer put me on her a couple of times, and had to walk next to me because I was so scared. Then the best worst thing in the world happened: I fell off another horse and ended up with a serious fracture of my collarbone that took surgery to repair (2 1/2 weeks in, because before that I was too weak) and 4 or 5 broken ribs and a partially collapsed lung. Everything hurt, including breathing. I could not swing a leg over any horse at all for 6 ish weeks. Getting me to the barn was a major production as I could not drive, though DH and a friend did their best. I was also unable to work for almost 2 months.

I was very lucky in my choice of trainers; she didn’t mind having me around and asking lots of questions. So that’s what happened. The assistant trainer did most of the riding as my horse didn’t need high level training; she needed regular work and a bit of “detuning”.

At 6 weeks, I started riding her at the walk to cool her off at the end of her training rides. As I got better (it took almost a year for full-ish recovery), since I was working part-time, if I was around, we started lessons at the end of the training rides, gradually increased the proportion of time I rode instead of the assistant. By 4 months after my accident, we had a good schedule worked out: 3 training rides, 2 lessons, and one “free day” where I could ride independently. I stayed with the trainer for just over a year before moving on because I also wanted to trail ride.

I’m not saying this fixed everything - my beloved mare turned out to be quite safe as long as one could sit a spook, and her brain was and still is a bit complicated. But not riding her and not being involved beyond the bare minimum for over a month gave the trainer time to get a good assessment of what we needed.

Obviously this is a different training model than in a H/J barn, where it seems like the trainers control everything and in fact don’t necessarily want the horse owners around that much, especially at first.

[findeight]

HJ barns actually are pretty much the same but the addition of jumps creates the need for additional safety measures and skill set for both horse and rider.

[Arelle]

My expectations for full training board is that over time, the horse progresses in a beneficial and meaningful way.

BUT - it’s kind of like weight loss. Slow and steady wins over the long term.

Sometimes a horse takes an excessive amount of time to learn what another learns in two rides. Sometimes vice versa.

The red flag for me would be your expectations as an owner. Schedules in the equine business are very fluid. My trainer is generally good about giving me a rough time - “10 AM Saturday”. But I know that we might not actually start until 10:30. Or maybe I arrive, and my horse is already tacked, and they’re waiting on me. Sometimes they get to the barn, and a horse needs medical attention, and that throws their day while they handle it. Sometimes the 9 AM horse has a come apart and ends up taking 75 minutes instead of 45 minutes to get through their rough patch. It isn’t like corporate America where I can end a meeting that’s running long; I’m dealing with an animal whose brain is the size of a walnut. As long as it isn’t egregious every single time, try to understand that a lot of external factors affect timing in barns - more so than almost any occupation aside from emergency rooms and OBGYNs.

[quietann]

The dressage barn where I had my mare was really good at consistent scheduling. But it was only 16 horses, not all of them in training, and at least 2 riders available. The arenas were large enough to have 2 horses worked. The trainer did not allow longeing when another horse was being ridden.

[Rumorhasit93]

@BostonHJ

I’m of the “trust, but verify” mentality. I agree they are going to work the horse at different times of the day and even different days of the week based on factors ranging from progress to weather to trainer availability and everything in between. I would want a quick weekly update via text with a short 1-2 minute video. Something like, “Dobbin had a good week. He had 5 rides. He felt a little tired after working three days in a row so we gave him Friday off. He’s getting more consistent in the bridle. Here’s a little video of him trotting around.” And then, definitely once a month and maybe twice a month, I would want to have an appointment to see him ridden.

Given that he has been tense on the ground in your presence before, let them get him ready etc and just meet them at the ring to watch. You can check in on his ground manners and go say hi to him after the ride.

As a relatively young person who turned pro at 18 and is now an amateur, this is the kind of client I could deal with and now strive to be. Low key, but also in the know with my horse’s care and progress. There is a finesse in being involved in your horses care but also not a helicopter parent.

I noticed horses who were naughty or impatient in the presence of their owner, were very spoiled. No treats in the crossties is for everyone’s benefit (not saying you do this, but if you do…).

[Fancy_Free]

I think it’s much harder to have a horse in full training when you have previously kept them at home. It feels like you have lost all control. While I agree that there needs to be some space I also would expect to be able to watch whenever I want (quietly, without interfering) and have open and honest communication at all times. I would not expect them to schedule around me, but I would expect somewhat of a schedule of rides - yes things happen and that’s fine but there is no reason why that can’t be done, and would be expected in any other professional setting. I would absolutely expect to know who was riding my horse, I am not going to pay full training for a working student to put most of the rides on my horse. I would not expect a timeline of training milestones, that is just not realistic with horses. I think it’s ok to ask questions respectfully, not to question their every move and critique.