What bit/bridle for the horse that lugs/hangs on your hands?

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[QUOTE=BaroquePony;8174504]
I wouldn’t go to the thinner mouthpiece. I would learn to sit and then ask your horse to lighten up with a good sharp bump to the mouth (using one hand will do it) (preferably in a nice French link mild snaffle or something similar) … but then you immediately need to keep things light after that or you are not rewarding your horse for taking the hint and getting lighter in your hands. By not going to a thinner bit you are being more humane about the situation when you have to bump your horse’s head up … ride forward as soon as you do this and you must lighten up your hands (rein contact) immediately afterward …

They don’t pull unless you are asking for too much with your hands. Now you need to correct this and learn to use your hands less and your legs and seat more.[/QUOTE]

^^^^ this, yes. But timing is so critical. And frequency. And duration.

and regress a bit, back to little contact for awhile until the horse openly asks for contact politely.

also, often the heavy horse is also not forward enough, not engaged from behind enough, and not in front of the leg…

Wish we could see a video!

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[QUOTE=soloudinhere;8174850]
Not all horses who are heavy in the bridle are not forward. Some are too forward and have gotten used to leaning on the hands to balance themselves and zoom forward if you drop them. I have one of these and it’s a greenness/balance issue. He isn’t strong enough to hold himself up and he has another rider who will hold him up because somewhere along the line she got taught that a strong contact is what you want - bzzt wrong answer.

For him a flat school in a 3 ring gag occasionally has helped (this horse does jump, and that’s what he jumps in). He will lean and ask me to carry him and push his shoulder on me, I can pick him up firmly, put my knee and thigh in, and make the point without getting him in the mouth or nagging at him, which just serves to piss him off and have him rush forward.

He relaxes nicely like this and it’s quite pleasant. I don’t see a problem with switching the bit to make a point. The horse would likely much prefer that than you nagging at her mouth and using half halts she doesn’t understand. That’s the point of reschooling.[/QUOTE]

So we are all right. I do the switch to a sharper bit often with some horses and it really works well in just 1-3 rides on the flat. I am less inclined to go to an elevator bit with a green horse and prefer the very thin mouth or a corkscrew (dressage divas in attack mode?). However, do not try this at home… :winkgrin: Seriously, switching out to a sharp bit is for the very educated

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8174965]
So we are all right. I do the switch to a sharper bit often with some horses and it really works well in just 1-3 rides on the flat. I am less inclined to go to an elevator bit with a green horse and prefer the very thin mouth or a corkscrew (dressage divas in attack mode?). However, do not try this at home… :winkgrin: Seriously, switching out to a sharp bit is for the very educated[/QUOTE]

Sure. It really depends on the horse. This one is really protective of his mouth so a french elevator got the point across better than a thin mouth bit. Depends so much on the individual horse. This one’s a pony who locks his neck against you and leans - so the elevator forces him to sit back and rebalance himself in the moment before he gets upset and lengthens his stride. If I were to ride him in a plain snaffle and keep bumping him in the mouth he’d get PISSED.

funny how different all our horses are A micklem with the clips also worked on this horse briefly but then he started to curl under instead, so we nipped that in the bud.

[BaroquePony]

Posted by soloudinhere: If I were to ride him in a plain snaffle and keep bumping him in the mouth he’d get PISSED.

Where has anyone said on this thread to “keep bumping [any horse] in the mouth”?

One time and then lighten up a lot … how does that even remotely equate with constantly bumping … ???

[soloudinhere]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;8175095]
Where has anyone said on this thread to “keep bumping [any horse] in the mouth”?

One time and then lighten up a lot … how does that even remotely equate with constantly bumping … ???[/QUOTE]

read what some people have advised to do…keep squeezing and releasing, bump him in the mouth and release and then do it again…etc.

Not every horse lightens immediately and just stays that way forever, so now you’re saying maybe bump him in the mouth every three strides? would not work for this horse.

[BaroquePony]

I’m not saying to bump a horse every three strides … I said give the horse ONE sharp upper cut using a mild snaffle … one time … and then rider forward into a light hand …

That would be during a one hour lesson. Maybe a second time after 10 minutes in rare cases … BUT THAT IS IT … if the rider isn’t able to get the idea and lighten up after this type of wake up call then we take a step back to something else …

Like throwing the reins away and developing a better seat …

[Divine_Comedy]

I really like to use the trot-halt-trot transition to lighten them up front. Halt needs to come from the leg, seat, and rider’s core, not the hands. Canter-halt-canter is good too, but a bit more advanced and the horse may not have the sttrength to hold themselves properly from halt to canter transition. Could also experiment with canter-halt-trot transition if the canter really is more of the problem gait, but I imagine if you teach the horse to be lighter in the trot, it should start to understand in the canter as well.

[beau159]

[QUOTE=chestnutwithchrome;8174384]
At an end of some dressage lessons my arms are so tired from trying to hold her up/back that they have physically given out on me, and she takes horrible advantage at the canter when I get tired.
…
I am looking for any/all ideas for bits/bridles that will help me to be able to make it through a dressage lesson/test without killing my arms, [/QUOTE]

If your arms are THAT tired by the end of the session, you don’t have a bit problem: You have a training problem.

Your horse has learned to brace itself against your hands. Essentially you are “holding” her up. Of course, that is not supposed to be the purpose of your hands.

You can change your bit but if you don’t change your riding, she is eventually going to do the same thing in the new bit.

I would back off on your showing for a while until you can get some re-training done with her. What does your trainer say about it?

When a horse gets heavy on your hands, whatever you do, don’t let them pull. How you respond will depend a little on the situation. In some cases, if you actually let out the reins a little bit, the horse will often stop pulling because there is nothing to pull against. And then when you softly pick back up, you want them to give their nose. In other situations, it is best to “hold steady” and not let the reins out at all, until the horse gives. Then you release.

It’s takes a lot of timing and a lot of feel to help a horse be soft in the bridle. It usually works the best to have someone coaching you from the ground to give you feedback on letting go too soon, too late, just right, more pressure, less pressure, etc. Or even better if your “coach” and ride your horse and see how she feels, and then be able to better instruct you while you are riding.

But once again, if your arms are taking such a beating, you’re going about it all wrong. The HORSE is the one that is supposed to be doing the work; not the rider! If your current dressage instructor can’t help you with that, then I’d explore other instructors.

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[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;8174658]
You’re right, nobody said that.

We all have methods that work for us, there is no harm in sharing them.

I think most are in agreement however that the main issue here is not needing a bit the horse “respects” more.[/QUOTE]

The way I see it, training a horse involves frequently opening the tool box for solutions that emerge. If a horse is heavy in the hand, it really is not helpful for us to just say, “Stop pulling, add more leg, etc.” One has to feel for what to do and when. Giving a horse a quick bump on one rein is one way to correct - but as I said above, and others have said, the bump has to be “just so,” very quick (but not a harsh jerk) and timed just right… One needs to experiment in order to get it right. For myself, I have spent 95% + of training, and learning to train, without eyes on the ground. So training is a conversation whilst the rider tries all sorts of things until something works. It is a puzzle, a challenge, and for many of us, the most fascinating part of riding a horse.

So we are all right. A sharper bit temporarily, can often help. Yes, this horse may very well need a different bit - longer term or for a few rides. I am a huge fan of the bit I cited in my first post. That bit, along with the Miklem, were a big part in improving scores close to 10% from one season to the next - for one of my horses. One of my current horses does exceptionally well to be put in a “sharp” bit every once in a while - but that bit is used with much leg (but not frequent leg). I am NOT a fan of “niggling” or constantly changing fingers/hands/ massaging/ or tapping with the leg. That just gives you a dull horse in the end. But even though the OP’s goal is a horse going softly with 2-6 lbs of pressure, that will not be where they need to go in the immediate future. IOW, throughness is not a short term goal. Submission is.

I will add that I have a bit in my toolbox that is highly effective with my young ISH now and then, the broken segunda. It is very severe if used in the manner that we use a regular snaffle. But it is NOT made for steady contact. If I put him in this bit, and then ride him very lightly but very forward, then I can turn him around in one ride. I have not used it for jumping. I hesitated to bring this bit up here as it is severe and could cause damage and I have heard of a solid Segunda resulting in lacerations in the hands of a pro who was angry with a horse and using it as punishment. Sitting in the mouth, the broken Segunda is not at all uncomfortable.

That being said, the bit is not the fix all. It sounds like the OP’s horse is still not balanced, especially at the canter, so would benefit from larger circles, shorter canter times, and lots of transitions. If this horse is as I think he is, I would probably be riding him for 20 minutes or so with up and down transitions, until he could be light in the bit. I would NOT use draw reins on this horse as I would be concerned that he would really really learn to lean. I would also not use a bit with any leverage, for the same reason. And unless using the Segunda, I would stick with loose ring, thinner the better, but then change it out to a fatter bit now, enroute to submission, connection, throughness, and all that sweet stuff!

OP, enjoy the process! Problems are puzzles, challenges, and lead to breakthroughs which can be truly orgasmic!!!

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[QUOTE=yellowbritches;8174458]
Kick. Don’t pull. A bit will only help so much with this, but if you want to try things to help, I would aim for thin mouth pieces.[/QUOTE]

YB, this is indeed what is needed. But… there has to be something that keeps the horse from just charging off at warp speed …

This reminds me of the other day when I was working on upping the collection at the canter, through a smaller circle. My guy just would NOT work off the outside rein once he got tired. So I kept telling myself, more outside aids, more outside aides… but in the end, that was just not going to do it. Sooo…

[whbar158]

Yup you want something that has enough bite they listen when you use your hand then you have to let go and let them carry themselves. Most horses get the idea pretty quickly. Also it may not be “pretty” too many people hold their horses together to be “pretty” IMO the only time you need to do that is in the show ring, at home you should not be just getting through it. Good luck, you will have to constantly remind yourself to let go and not pull for a long time.

[Minor_Altercation]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;8175150]
I’m not saying to bump a horse every three strides … I said give the horse ONE sharp upper cut using a mild snaffle … one time … and then rider forward into a light hand …

That would be during a one hour lesson. Maybe a second time after 10 minutes in rare cases … BUT THAT IS IT … if the rider isn’t able to get the idea and lighten up after this type of wake up call then we take a step back to something else …

Like throwing the reins away and developing a better seat …[/QUOTE]

Actually, if using this tactic, I would probably have to do it more often, in concert with quickly moving forward - timing is everything with the aids. Every time the horse starts to lean, a quick/sharp correction and then a millisecond later, apply quick, sharp leg - this is a correction and so it needs to occur when the horse is not submissive.

And if a horse gets angry with the correction, well… that is a training issue altogether. Sometimes, we are not just conversing with the horse and have to assert our parental role… and some things are just not negotiable. Certainly none of us are advocating for being cruel but we also do not want to advocate for being too soft either. I am all about kindness and pats and treats and hugs and praise, but when push comes to shove, the rider is the boss, the parent, the leader, the director, and all of that.

And for those arguing that this is a training issue and not a bit issue? It is both as I see the use of the bit and the choice of a bit as part of training and distinct from training. Heck, we all use different bits for different reasons, and the OP is searching for ways to address a training problem. What she needs to do at this point is to throw the reins away and have the horse carry himself - and that is a lot of work for the horse. Sooo… telling, then asking, telling, then asking…

[PoohLP]

My horse gets heavy. It’s not all his fault - he is built pretty downhill so it has been a process to slowly build him up to be able to carry himself up. I played around with bits a lot to find the right bit for him for dressage. Things I havee found:

Loose ring is better. He like the play and the movement. I also can wiggle it a little as an alternative suppling aid. He’s very mouthy, so I think he likes the wiggle.

He does not like a flash or tight noseband - this just makes him resist relaxing his jaw bc he’s trying to fight it.

Straight bits, or bits that act like stright bits (AKA Stubben EZcontrol) make him resist and pull more. KK bits were too fat. French link - meh.

I finally tried a Myler Comfort Snaffle in a loose ring. I was skeptical, but he loves it. These bits are designed to take a little, but not all pressure off the tongue and they are dressage legal. They also have a lot of play and you can move each side of the bit independently, which gives him less to pull against. Several places have a rental program so you can try it out, which is nice since they aren’t cheap.

All that said, I also have to ride him really forward and resist the urge to get in a tugging war. Lots of leg, lots of suppling. lots of give and take. Lots of holding my hands up light, pushing him forward into the contact and just letting him bump against me till he gives and then suppling and playing with him to keep him where I want him to be. But all this is much easier when they like the bit.

[Huntin_Pony]

Wow do I agree with beau159. Re-train. Even though it takes time.

As for bumping the mouth as a corrective technique, especially with a bit with “more bite,” ouch.

[poltroon]

The technique I like, which is different from bumping the horse in the mouth, is the alternate releasing rein.

You’re cantering. Put a loop in the outside rein for 3-5 strides. Horsey, if he is pulling, does not like the way the bit just shifted. He did it to himself. Now gently take the rein back, and a few strides later, loop the inside rein. Same deal. And you keep your leg on and working.

What I like about this is that you still have connection to the horse, so you’re not going to be in danger, but you give the horse some responsibility for where his head is going to be rather than having it in your lap. Further, a horse that is tense tends to relax because they start to like the idea that there will be less tension on the reins. There’s nothing about letting go of a rein to create fear or pain.

The exercise will feel a little different depending upon if you do it on a straightaway or on a circle. It will also help you maintain balance and bend with your seat and leg instead of your hand, so benefits accrue to the rider as well.

I also like lots of transitions. If the horse is out of balance in canter, stop trying to fix it in canter. Transition to another gait, and return to the canter. Try to make transitions before you lose the balance, but definitely make one if the horse tires and loses balance. It is a strengthening exercise and it also sets a tone for your expectations. In some instances a volte may be a substitute for a gait transition.

You of course want a bit that is comfortable for the horse. You like the way your three ring gag works as a mouthpiece, so you could try just putting your rein on the snaffle ring only and thus using it as a snaffle as a schooling experiment to see if the mouthpiece is what is working for you there, or if you’re relying on the gag action.

[poltroon]

Adding on to what I wrote: I was taught that if I knew a horse was going to become unbalanced and pull after 10 strides, that the way to fix that was to rely on the fact I can count and do a transition after the 9th stride. That is another very good exercise - 5 strides of canter, 5 strides of trot, repeated for some period of time. You can make your count vary, but the point is to be thoughtful and distinct about making lots of transitions whenever that count is up rather than just letting yourself drift around the ring.

[BaroquePony]

Anyone who thinks this bit being used to ‘bump’ a horse once or twice until they listen to just turning the hand up a bit (lifting) is a serious “ouch” for most horses should maybe get in touch with PETA.

https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/herm-sprenger-dynamic-rs-aurigan-eggbutt-style-bit-7108

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[QUOTE=Huntin’ Pony;8177031]
Wow do I agree with beau159. Re-train. Even though it takes time.

As for bumping the mouth as a corrective technique, especially with a bit with “more bite,” ouch.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I missed something but I am pretty sure that no one has advocated bumping the mouth with a bit with more bite.

Also, “bumping the mouth” does not have to be severe at all. I also do not think anyone is stating that the horse should be yanked on in any punitive way.

I cannot imagine training any horse without using any sort of correction ever.

Poltroon, I use the inside rein to release and work toward steady contact in the outside rein with any niggling occuring on the inside rein. And cantering with looping the inside rein for a few strides is an established “movement” in dressage to demonstrate self-carriage.

Also, those who are suggesting a sharper bit are also making it very VERY clear that this is in concert with changing riding -

And a using a sharper bit can be as simple as going from a 16mm to a 12mm.

ETA: Heck, I just went from a 16mm to a 12mm today because my 5 year old has gotten heavy on the forehand. So with the 12mm, I can get a ton of action from behind because I can ride with far less contact. Once I get that re-established, I can put him back in the fatter bit and continue on our way.

[BaroquePony]

I don’t own any thin mouthpiece bits or any twisted wire bits, double, triple or corkscrew.

The last ‘event’ horse I rode at another barn used to run away with people and he was wearing a corkscrew. I used to just take my own bridle to use on him and it was a basic thick single joint with some nice curves. I taught classes using him and took riders out on short cross country stints using him and he never ran away with me.

He did lay down in the water jump once because we were standing in it and I was teaching off of him … and it was hot.

[Huntin_Pony]

Poltroon has some very good suggestions. Well explained, too.