What bit/bridle for the horse that lugs/hangs on your hands?

[chestnutwithchrome]

My warmblood mare has always been a bit heavy on the hands from the day she was broke and as she has grown and matured it has only gotten worse, even as she has gotten more training. We have played with a variety of bits through the years, and for the past year I have been exceedingly happy with a 3 ring gag bit for the jumping phases. She is quite light and responsive in it, and it really helps me to pick her up and get her to use her hind end a little more, something she is loathe to do. Unfortunately it is not legal for dressage. I have been riding her in a boucher, as it’s the only bit I know that is legal for dressage and has some leverage, but its just not doing the job. At an end of some dressage lessons my arms are so tired from trying to hold her up/back that they have physically given out on me, and she takes horrible advantage at the canter when I get tired. I can usually get her in the trot, but our dressage canter work is not pretty, which is so frustrating when her canter is quite decent when there is a jump in front of her and a bit she respects in her mouth. I am looking for any/all ideas for bits/bridles that will help me to be able to make it through a dressage lesson/test without killing my arms, especially since we are moving up to training level this summer. I wasn’t sure if a Micklem bridle might help? Any ideas welcome!

Thanks!

[Winding_Down]

This is my go to bit for any horse that tends to be heavier in the bridle. It also works well with one who needs a lot of leg - as you can lighten up the front end as you push the back end… if that makes any sense at all!

http://nsbits.com/product/verbindend/

It is also expensive. I got my first one from Europe, spending considerably less. I am now toying with another in a different size, but am not sure I really need it at this point.

Another one that may work and is more accessible is the Myler loose ring - the thinnest with the small french link.

Micklem may help

(I really hate to respond to this request with the mantra, “Ride your horse differently,” as that seems such a common response. And your question is about a bit choice and not about advice on riding… But if your arms are tired, you are pulling too hard… I have fixed that problem for myself by going to a much sharper bit for a ride or two - to get me off the horse’s mouth and driving more from behind. I do not know your experience level and I would recommend doing this only if you have very educated hands and even more educated legs. You may need to drop steady contact for a bit until you can get to a point where you can stop pulling so much)

[GoForAGallop]

I’ll be the first Debbie Downer to say it…they can’t pull/hang if you’re not also pulling/hanging.

[yellowbritches]

Kick. Don’t pull. A bit will only help so much with this, but if you want to try things to help, I would aim for thin mouth pieces.

[BaroquePony]

I wouldn’t go to the thinner mouthpiece. I would learn to sit and then ask your horse to lighten up with a good sharp bump to the mouth (using one hand will do it) (preferably in a nice French link mild snaffle or something similar) … but then you immediately need to keep things light after that or you are not rewarding your horse for taking the hint and getting lighter in your hands. By not going to a thinner bit you are being more humane about the situation when you have to bump your horse’s head up … ride forward as soon as you do this and you must lighten up your hands (rein contact) immediately afterward …

They don’t pull unless you are asking for too much with your hands. Now you need to correct this and learn to use your hands less and your legs and seat more.

[beowulf]

Both GFAG & YB have points… you can’t win tug of war with a horse and if you don’t feed into her pulling she can’t play that game.

I agree that a thinner mouth-piece is in order but NO, absolutely NO leverage bits. You will be teaching her to lean off of your hands even more if you add leverage to the situation in a flat session. Find out why you are pulling and then find a way to change that - what you are doing is not working or you would not have posted here (BTDT, got the tee-shirt, we’ve all been guilty at one point of riding a heavy horse too heavy) I like the Myler Loose-rings for these types of horses.

If she is pulling you out of the saddle @ the canter, honestly, put her in some side reins until she learns she is only pulling against herself. I had one good trainer who used to teach me on a client’s horse, client’s horse was very, very heavy in the bridle and I wanted to work on my independent seat – so she would put the horse in side reins and put us both on the lunge… a big NO-NO in America, but a basic in many european programs. We worked on lots of transitions, and lots of GO. Put yourself on the lunge and have your trainer video-tape you - chances are you are using too much of your hand because either you feel her movement is too big or you have not developed an independent seat yet.

I spent 2 weeks w/ this horse w.o ever once touching the reins - the first ride back after being off the lunge he was much lighter, but not cured.

Off lunge a good exercise is to work on going going going - no ‘whoas’ or holding back - use halfhalt off your seat and not your reins and think of cupping her mouth upwards - holding the reins the way you would hold a baby’s hands, and when you feel her pushing down pick up your hands (do not pull back) and rap her twice with your heels and send her FORWARD. It’s almost too much work for most horses to travel heavy/on the forehand while going in a big medium gait.

Why not have your trainer get on, or have her offer some solution? Riding a heavy horse is NO fun and can be a very hard habit to break for both you and horse, so it is always good to have help.

[BaroquePony]

The among of weight you should be feeling in your hands with a contact is between 2 and 4 pounds depending on the horse, bit and gait.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;8174537]
The among of weight you should be feeling in your hands with a contact is between 2 and 4 pounds depending on the horse, bit and gait.[/QUOTE]

Did you see the ‘study’ that was in (I think) Dressage today? Apparently after warm up top level riders ride with over 11lb of force. Interesting thought, isn’t it? I know if I had that much hanging off of my face I’d pull too :eek:

[Bogie]

A Boucher really doesn’t have any leverage (no fulcrum). In fact, no dressage-legal bits have leverage. Because the baucher is suspended from the cheekpieces, it does stay very still in the horse’s mouth and some horses prefer that (I had one of those).

For a horse that’s leaning, I would suggest a loose ring, as that makes it harder for the horse to lean. I like the Verbinend (you can buy them for less $$ on eBay, or look for a sale) but it’s not a “magic” bit.

However, the cause of the pulling/leaning is not necessarily going to be fixed by the bit. It is most likely a balance issue, caused because your horse isn’t stepping under himself enough to hold himself up. Or, your horse is being rude and wants to root (but it sounds more like a weakness).

I would find a bit that your horse accepts well and then work on exercises that will teach your horse to better step under himself and lighten in front so that he is in self carraige – transitions both between and within the gaits, shoulder in, etc. You will need to use a lot of leg and you will need to stop holding your horse together. You simply can’t hold your horse up for long periods of time without becoming exhausted. Learning to let go and soften through the elbow is hard if you have a horse that you’ve been holding up for a long time. Short sessions at first because your horse needs to develop the strength for self carriage.

The bit you choose will make a difference. My horses have very strong preferences about their bits – but you won’t find a magic bit that makes your horse stop pulling until 1) you stop pulling back and 2) your horse is strong enough to do this.

One more thought. When my Trakenher was about 16 he got very heavy in my hands and was leaning on me. It turned out that his hocks were bothering him. After he had them injected, he started carrying himself again and his front end lightened up. So sometimes there is a physical issue that the horse is compensating to overcome.

[BaroquePony]

I didn’t see the study, but I can believe it after some of the riding I’ve seen.

That is a lot of weight be carrying around in your hands and then expect to be able to use yourself well in the saddle.

Horse is just a reflection of your equitation and understanding.

A well schooled horse should be floating in your hands. It doesn’t happen overnight and mistakes need to be corrected, but once you and your horse gain an understanding it works.

Bumping the horse in the mouth is exceptable as an aid … not done by accident, but on purpose in order to get them to understand that lugging is not good for either of you.

[GoForAGallop]

The “bumping” in the mouth seems to work for some.

I far prefer opening and closing the fingers, combined with leg. Every. Single. Stride. if that’s what it takes.

Hanging? Open your fingers and apply leg. Horse moves forward without getting jabbed in the mouth, and you can pick up where you were before by closing your fingers the next stride.

Far easier to sneak by in the show ring too, then a sharp bump…

For the truly dense greenies, you can escalate it to not opening the fingers, but instead moving both hands forward and applying leg, then immediately “resetting.” Far more obvious of a “hey, stop leaning on me!” signal for a green horse than a light loosening of the fingers.

[BaroquePony]

No one said anything about bumping becoming another habit or having to use it in the show ring … if done a couple of times the horse should understand that a much lighter version of the same aid will bring the same result only all the rider has to do is turn the hand in a tad for an instant and ride forward.

Usually an opening and closing of the fingers or a slight turn of the hand upward and inward isn’t in the ball park at this stage.

Understanding that hands and rein aids have many variations beginning with some very basic ones and then refining them as things begin to improve.

The same goes for the leg aids and the seat aids.

Horse aren’t born automatically understanding the aids. The rider has to teach them.

Of course in America riders often are learning at the same time they are trying to train their horse which makes things extremely difficult and confusing.

Developing the seat is the most important part … so you can use your rein aids in an effective and educated and coordinated manner.

[Pipkin]

Schooling.

This is a schooling issue, no bit will fix it!

I agree with others, the answer is usually more leg and less hand. You need to figure out if it’s a balance issue, a laziness/respect issue, a tension issue or just plain ignorance, to properly tailor your approach.

Leaning is actually super easy to fix, much easier than a horse that is too light and avoids the contact. Make sure to do loads of transitions and spirals. All the time! Use your leg aids to rebalance the horse, you might need a lot at first. And treat rein aids as you would leg aids - escalating. If she blows through a seat half halt you have to reiterate with the rein, and if she ignores that, make it strong enough so that she obeys. Eventually she will listen to the seat half halt. You can make real progress with this in one session, I recommend working on forward and back in trot. If she roots, use your leg to correct it, and if she gets hangy, give away one or both reins for a couple of strides. The trick is to dictate the contact you want! If you give them something to lean on, they will, so keep it all soft. You can use a stronger half halt, but release it quickly too.

[FatCatFarm]

More leg and possibly a bit she’s happier carrying. My big draft cross was leaning a lot and I did need to ride him more forward, but switching to a softer mullen mouth bit like the Nathe helped a lot with acceptance. Problem with the Nathes is they are so squishy, they are easily chewed and marred. The HS Duos are similar but even more expensive. I recently switched to a Korsteel Flexi Flavored peppermint mullen mouth. It’s soft, but not as soft as the Nathe, so not as easily or quickly damaged, and only $26 bucks on VTO saddlery. My guy loves it. I give a couple of peppermints as I’m bridling him and he has a lovely foamy mouth now when riding. That and riding with more leg and he’s improved a lot. The bit was only a tool and my riding better is the key.

He was fussy in the bridle as a younger horse so I did put him in a Miklem and have been riding in it ever since. He does seem more comfortable in it and less fussy. It’s not a bridle for every horse but I do like the ergonomics of it. I need to get another for his younger brother who is more forward and goes in a different bit. Good luck.

[The_Centaurian]

I would try a snaffle with a port, like a Myler, or like the bit Winding Down posted.

It’s not fair to you if your half-halt requires a massive pull to work, and it’s not doing your horse any favors, either. I’m not saying that changing tack is like a magic wand to fix your problem, but it can certainly have a place in the process.

[Jealoushe]

Agree with GoForAGallop! Do not let the horse balance in the reins! The horse was trained this way and will continue on until something changes - the bit can only do so much. When she pulls - let go. It won’t take her long to realize she will fall on her head without you holding her up.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;8174610]
No one said anything about bumping becoming another habit r.[/QUOTE]

You’re right, nobody said that.

We all have methods that work for us, there is no harm in sharing them.

I think most are in agreement however that the main issue here is not needing a bit the horse “respects” more.

[The_Country_Eventer]

My OTTB likes to get heavy in the bridle too. When is he being lazy, as I suspect is the case with your mare, he will leannnnnn on my hands as much as he can. As someone else mentioned a loose ring does wonders. I ride my guy in a loose ring french link and he isn’t able to lean in it. Now that he is coming along nicely I have transitioned him to a D-ring french link and he is very very happy with it. He likes the stability and he still can’t lean when he is lazy.

There was an interesting thread in the dressage forum about squeezing with calf v. thigh. I recommend a read of it. I find that when you have a horse that leans or braces more leg is the answer, but more specifically more thigh. It lifts the shoulders up, which rocks them back on their hocks, thus not leaning. Just a thought i know when I think of it that way it makes a big difference with my guy.

[akor]

Have you either done this on your own or had someone work with you on it?

Forward no matter what. And I mean no matter what, head in the air, rider hanging on for dear life, a bit crooked, etc…leg means FORWARD RIGHT NOW. count backwards to yourself, 3, 2, 1, GO and if there is not a HUGE go, you should get one! I can’t stress enough how I meant INSTANT reaction, Ok if it’s too big at first.

I “blew” some dressage schooling show tests because in warm up, around the ring, if I didn’t have instant GO I made my point and we’d go into the test and the slightest thought from me would send her into the bridle into the canter. If it didn’t, right the ring, we went forward Well worth it though, she learned I meant it even in the sandbox all dressed up with that person in the car or hut watching us I meant it.

I have a WB mare that seems similar to yours, just based on your post of course :o) While it took a bit to finally get there, I got her to a snaffle with a middle part with the roller and only would go back to the gag in the spring - we schooled dressage some in it too - but to help me more than her and we tried to NOT use it for dressage. What changed her? - GO FORWARD from the leg and learn to carry yourself.

That took training, which I was fortunate to be able to fund and the trainer did a SUPERB job of making her into a 2nd level dressage horse, which helped across the board.

not that you need lectures, but if she’s like my mare, it was all in the forward. then transitions, pole work, and getting her into self carriage.

Edited to add: I strength train a lot, and I too had VERY tired arms after riding her before I fixed it. Ridiculous looking back - she can carry herself

[soloudinhere]

Not all horses who are heavy in the bridle are not forward. Some are too forward and have gotten used to leaning on the hands to balance themselves and zoom forward if you drop them. I have one of these and it’s a greenness/balance issue. He isn’t strong enough to hold himself up and he has another rider who will hold him up because somewhere along the line she got taught that a strong contact is what you want - bzzt wrong answer.

For him a flat school in a 3 ring gag occasionally has helped (this horse does jump, and that’s what he jumps in). He will lean and ask me to carry him and push his shoulder on me, I can pick him up firmly, put my knee and thigh in, and make the point without getting him in the mouth or nagging at him, which just serves to piss him off and have him rush forward.

He relaxes nicely like this and it’s quite pleasant. I don’t see a problem with switching the bit to make a point. The horse would likely much prefer that than you nagging at her mouth and using half halts she doesn’t understand. That’s the point of reschooling.