What bloodlines specifically do you like to see in your TB sporthorse?

I’ll throw out a couple pedigrees there, too.

This is my older mare, that I just love: www.pedigreequery.com/blushing+maiden

Tale female to Uvira, dam of Missy Baba. Blushing Groom, Stage Door Johnny, Smarten, Tom Rolfe. I adore this mare. She’s an allowance winner, turf horse. I’d love to get a foal out of her, but have waffled on who to put her to for ages.

This is my baby: http://www.pedigreequery.com/seven+springs4

The Unbridled’s Song certainly gave me pause, but Even the Score had a fair number of starts, and his dam line seems quite durable. Wekiva Springs seems to be a producer of event horses, and the TV Lark and King’s Bishop both seem to be popular for sport. 2x Blushing Groom is nothing to sneeze at. We have 3x Wild Risk just off the page, along with 2x My Babu. I am excited to see what she can do.

Ones closer up (more recent) I like to see (from personal experience) are definitely Private Account and Cozzene.

A mare I had recently was the most spectacular TB I have ever seen in my life with a fabulous temperament and jaw dropping movement, a solid 17hh and better legs/bone/feet than any WB I have seen. She was Danzing, Icecapade and Drone very close up. I am still totally sad that she went to a hippy trail riding home and not to a breeder, as if any TB should have been bred for sporthorses it was this mare
http://www.pedigreequery.com/dreamingofaprince
This is her at 9 years old straight out of the pasture after having a few foals
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2597696300104500765xPrufz

We have a little gray in the program with a bow that is also a very good mover, again much better than many TBs and he has a wonderful temperament. He raced nearly 30 times and is sound even with the bow. He is Caro and Icecapade on top
http://www.pedigreequery.com/sundance+kiddo
http://pets.webshots.com/album/582730366eyWGGs

I have to say I agree our mare by Pleasant Tap (a son) is no exception–long lines, BIG galloper, well above average mover and BIG jump.

this one is mine

I would love it if someone could give me some insight into my gelding’s pedigree. I see a few of the names y’all have mentioned in there–Turn-To, Best Turn, Ambiorix, Swaps–but I don’t know much about it.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/bobby+d2
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2923897700105464652SRNfgg

^^That’s him when he was 5 or 6. It’s not the best picture, but he’s structurally fairly well put together. Decent mover, good jumper, fantastic mind and I’ve NEVER come across another horse that tries as hard as he does.

Here’s my first TB: http://www.pedigreequery.com/autumns+dream
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2127273090105464652sTbozM

^^That was at 5, about 3-4 weeks off the track. He was a beautiful mover and super athletic. Again, great mind even just off the track. I remember that his mother produced a couple of six-figure winners and his sire clearly didn’t lack in the athleticism, either.

That’s why I just look on the first page…and for the combination of names. It is also why I started breeding my own mares who’s dam lines I know well.

As for current racing stallions…some of the ones I like are hard to get a hold of as their offspring do welll in racing. Sometimes looking at more regional stallions can be good. There is a local stallion standing in MD named Rockslide…I have a daughter and now have seen 5-6 others all similar in type. All good jumpers and decent minds. Rockslide is a son of AP Indy with a strong dam line.

Other local stallions are Harry the Hat and Mystic Replica. I also love Macsen’s Sword but his offspring are harder to find now.

This is my current girl’s pedigree. She has the movement and jump to go all the way. Super brave, smart and a bit opinionated. Solid body type and has been confused for a WB…even by Jimmy Wofford :wink: We are taking our time with her but I’m super excited.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/rockstina

[QUOTE=EventerAJ;6421969]
While I love all these old names mentioned, it’s getting harder and harder to find them up close. And one thing I remember from a very grueling Genetics class in college is that past the 4th generation, it’s so dilute that it probably doesn’t matter.

-Parents 50/50
-Grandparents each 25%
-Great Grandparents each 12.5%
-Great great Grandparents each 6.25%. (Meaning 93.75% of the genetics likely comes from somewhere else.)

Now, there are prepotent lines, which may trend down a long ways. But seeing one name waaaay back there means very little to me, statistically.
QUOTE]

Outstanding post!

[QUOTE=EventerAJ;6421969]
While I love all these old names mentioned, it’s getting harder and harder to find them up close. And one thing I remember from a very grueling Genetics class in college is that past the 4th generation, it’s so dilute that it probably doesn’t matter.

-Parents 50/50
-Grandparents each 25%
-Great Grandparents each 12.5%
-Great great Grandparents each 6.25%. (Meaning 93.75% of the genetics likely comes from somewhere else.)

Now, there are prepotent lines, which may trend down a long ways. But seeing one name waaaay back there means very little to me, statistically.

I’m finding myself studying “current” sires and lines a lot more, trying to pick out trends and the ones who produce what I like. Fortunately, being in Lexington and working on TB farms for a few years let me see a lot.

Of more recent sires, I like:
Pleasant Colony-- tend to be long-legged, uphill, big gallopers and above-average movers. Knew one personally who did very well in YEH and evented to intermediate.

AP Indy-- gosh the good ones are so athletic. The ones I’ve known had good minds, too. It helps that AP Indy saw a lot of really nice mares, so you’re not likely to see many duds. :wink: He has quite a few sons at stud, and some are more successful than others, but it’s a bit early to tell which exactly will make good sport horses…but I’m optimistic. I have an AP Indy grandson who greatly resembles API moreso than his sire; this isn’t uncommon, in my experience.

Pulpit, by AP Indy-- they seem to be stamped with nice front ends, beautiful arched necks and shoulders. Some of them are kinda short with chunky pony bodies, but those with legs are super nice…and most of them are athletic, chunky or not.

Langfuhr-- usually have big, huge shoulders, big hips, and an enormous walk. If they aren’t too big for themselves, pretty nice movers and jumpers.

Fappiano and his relateds-- it’s hard to go wrong with Fapp relatives: Quiet American, Comet Shine, Unbridled, etc. Unbridled’s Song himself gives me pause, but the rest of them make me happy. All seem to have great proportions, nice toplines, good solid horses and overwhelming success in sport.

Sadler’s Wells-- he’s made a tremendous amount of nice turf horses, and some super jumpers too. I’m a fan of his son El Prado, too…usually pretty proportionate. And another who makes yummy-looking kids: Medaglia D’Oro, by El Prado.

Storm Cat-- yeah they can be headcases, but also athletic, cat-like, and some are great movers. I’m not crazy about most SC sons at stud…I run away from Giant’s Causeway, for example, but it depends on the horse. I’ve liked a few Hennessy’s-- but I love Hennessy’s dam (by Hawaii). SC on the mare side is highly variable…some are nice, some are not, hard to judge.

Roberto-- not always the best movers, but great jumpers. Rode a Roberto foxhunter who was as game as they come. Roberto seems to be fairly common among steeplechasers (like McDynamo, by Dynaformer, a son of Roberto).

Others I’m keeping an eye on:
Include-- by Broad Brush, he has some old school up close. I’ve only seen a couple personally, but they were tall, uphill, long legs and big flowing strides. My type.

Empire Maker-- it sucks he went to Japan, he’s had some nice athletic types. Don’t know many in sport horse careers (yet), but I like the type of horse he makes: moderate size, proportionate, classic TBs with big hearts.

Tiznow-- he stamps his get well with a super classic TB look. They always seem to catch my eye out in the field, just the way they’re put together: long legs, long uphill necks, with a look of eagles. Tend to have upright pasterns; don’t know how well they hold up, or if they jump, but I’d be willing to give it a try!

Lion Heart-- he himself was decidedly NOT my type, but I fell in love with quite a few of his offspring who were well-proportioned, leggy, and had great minds. Good-looking horses, too bad Lion Heart went to Turkey.

Cherokee Run (and sons)-- I haven’t met enough of them personally to get a good judgment, but they tend to be light, athletic types with chrome. I get the impression they’d jump the moon and move well, but don’t know enough of them in sport to say for sure.[/QUOTE]

Outstanding Post!

i am no breeder, but i think the point of “the old names” is that some of them are known to produce wonderful lines that tend to carry on certain traits…

as examples: not TB but in the Connemara world a stallion by the name of Rory Ruadh was known for high percentage of really sporty dressage type offspring, and most of the top Connemara dressage ponies go back to him - so when i say i like to see Rory Ruadh in a pedigree it is what i know his lines produces that i am looking for…

same with WBs or TBs - for example: Sir Ivor was really well known and respected in France for producing top sport horses - and that line tends to produce really nice sport horses - no matter that he is a few generations back

that is the deal with studying pedigrees… its not that you think a certain individual will be influential but what that certain individuals offspring produce… if you get my drift.

This is why in the WB world you can say that Weltmeyers are such and so, Rubenstein’s thus and so etc etc and how breeders can actually predict some things :slight_smile:

i think genetically it is that these lines have dominant traits that override other genetic material to produce what you want - especially if you find that nick that allows those wonderful things to shine thru :slight_smile:

(hopefully i haven’t hacked the science too badly!)

[QUOTE=secretariat;6421630]

Fred - You nailed it - especially the Sir Gaylord on the damside. Looks like a perfect nick for AFR![/QUOTE]

Thanks secretariat.
This is a big handsome mare, with an outstanding jump. Her damsire Avie’s Copy was a decent racehorse, but didn’t do too well as a racehorse sire (he stood up here at Gardiner Farms).
But he tends to produce a type that I like, and very often they can jump.
I had heard (but don’t know if this is true) - that he was exported to Germany to produce sporthorses.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6421845]
Blandford, tudor minstrel, wild risk, aureole, blandford, did I mention blandford? Blue Larkspur, Vaila and Padilla, mieuxce, fair play, rose leaves, to market, native dancer, nodouble, double jay, star kingdom, never bend, hawaii, bold bidder, agnes, pretty polly, queenie, Elf, Upas, Ksar, both nimbuses, teddy by the dozens, RAN, Relic, Bonne Cause, spy Song, Count Fleet, Swaps, Best Turn, even some of the No. Ders and Mr Ps–there are lots more, including many more mares, but this will do for a start.[/QUOTE]

Names that I forgot to mention here, Bold Bidder/Double Jay/Never Bend etc, .

EventerAJ - I am a huge fan of AP Indy as well, and think that he takes after his wonderful female family.

I would add Lemon Drop Kid to that list too. He too shares that wonderful female family which traces back to Gay Missile.

This is also the female family of A Fine Romance’s sire, Brave Shot.

No one else has mentioned him, so I will. :slight_smile:
A Fine Romance has a rich TB pedigree - Bold Bidder, Double Jay, 4x4 Nasrullah, 5x5 Princequillo, Gay Missile, Turn-to,My Babu, Royal Charger, Umidwar, Sir Gaylord etc, etc plus NO ND and NO Mr P.
He is proven to sire good athletes out of a wide range of mares.

His oldest daughters are starting to become broodmares now, with one of them the dam of a horse who competed at the most recent Pan Ams, in dressage.
I think that sporthorse breeders who want to add good,proven TB lines to their sporthorse program, should look for daughters of A Fine Romance.
I think it is a wellspring of athleticism, jumping ability, a great canter/gallop, soundness, combined with an intelligent and willing temperament.
I would love to see his daughters go to good breeders who understand breeding for the future.

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;6421226]
What A Pleasure (and his dam Grey Flight)
his son Foligno is one of my favorites

Olden Times
The Axe (and a few others by Mahmoud)
Sir Gaylord
Hoist the Flag (really Tom Rolfe)
Tourbillon
In Reality
Herbager (and his son Grey Dawn)
Mill Reef
Saddler Wells

Lots of others too.:slight_smile: I tend to like a rangy type but with a powerful hind end.[/QUOTE]

Grey Flight is one I look for as well:

This is a mare that was a blast to ride with a great brain. She did it all, including carriage drivng:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/lillie+darwin

KnowthatIfly on the board has her only filly, by Jupiter, and is breeding her for jumpers.

This was the colt that I kept:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/mist+in+flight

He was such a natural athlete and if he hadn’t been injured at 3 (turnout accident that caused some permanent issues) he would have played with upper level dressage. I haven’t ridden any other horse with his natural balance and ability even with his slight issue. I lost him last year having never had the chance to use him for breeding.

Some pictures of both can be seen at:

http://s620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/cap7297/Lillie%20Dawin/

http://s620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/cap7297/

Christa

Just for kicks, here’s my (now dead) Duncan’s pedigree. He could do anything and everything beautifully. And his family seems to have been very, very durable. He foxhunted until he was twenty two.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/easter+spy

As posted by EventerAJ

“Parents 50/50
-Grandparents each 25%
-Great Grandparents each 12.5%
-Great great Grandparents each 6.25%. (Meaning 93.75% of the genetics likely comes from somewhere else.)

Now, there are prepotent lines, which may trend down a long ways. But seeing one name waaaay back there means very little to me, statistically.”

These are facts no getting around. And just because the sire and dam in theory are 50-50 of the equation doesn’t guarantee that each of their genes will be split equally. Nor will it guarantee the “best” of each will be passed on. There is, simply put, good and bad recessive and dominate genes at play with each mating. Regardless of how thoughtful the breeder is in the end it is still a crap shoot until one has had enough foals out of a mare to get a handle on what is work and what is not. This is a breeding fact. However as EventerAj goes on to say “there are prepontent lines” further back in the blood that is worth taking into consideration. Unlike Thoroughbreds who’s genetic make up, performance, produce and conformation is well documented the same can not be said for sport horses. At least not in a statistically significant way. There just aren’t the numbers out there nor the data base to draw from. Correct me if I am wrong and direct me to something like Jockey Club’s Equineline pedigree service for sport horse breeding statistics that provide the relevance of direct TB blood in numerous top sport horse pedigrees over the years.
The vast majority of names offered up have been deceased for decades if not longer and would have little to no direct influence on a foal being bred today. This is not my opinion this a genetic fact. Again I would take into consideration “prepotent lines”. But that is still a bit of “grasping at straws”.
To those who have offered up these names, and I am not trying to be snarky, how many of you have breed and or worked with and or been around enough of the offspring/descendents who’s bloodlines contain enough genetic material to be of statistical importance? In the TB world this is called a “nick”. Top rated nicks are based on the fact every year there are numerous foals being born and then raced on an close to exact cross or “close enough” cross to be statistically relevant. Again I have yet to find a data base that provides quantitative information of successful breeding patterns that utilized Thoroughbred blood for sport horse purposes. In numbers that can make a case.
Not surprising all of the name of the past being offered were/ have become respected by all TB race breeders. What I never see is people suggesting maternal lines.

So much of what we do with horses be it, breed, train, ride etc. is based on unquestioned “hearsay”. A lot of it IMO nonsense and a lot of it sound. What frustrates the uninitiated is the intuitive nature of good horsemanship. Something that may take a lifetime to acquire if you are lucky.

All that being said I would like to add 2 more names to the list for consideration and they are not based on any credible statistics. Alphabet Soup and Storm and Half. We had a yearling, colts, of each that I worked with and broke with the intention of flat racing. Both were a joy to work with, both were outstanding jumpers at 2. Both sold to jump people for excellent money. But they were the ONLY ones I have worked with so far. I have heard other none race people speak well of Alphabet Soup. He started out strong commanding a stud fee of $25,000 it is a fraction of that now and he has had some very good runners. Storm and Half a son of Storm Cat. A sire line that I have reservation about for sport or Steeplechase. And out of a Mr. Prospector mare. Maybe my guy was just a “1 offed” but he is a seriously nice horse. Given the fact that Storm and a Half is a really good regional racehorse sire, Arkansas, with limited opportunity mare wise I just don’t think it is happenstance. I will go out of my way to look at yearlings and or horses by either of these 2 especially for none racing.

gum tree…your point is taken. There is only the data that those of us who breed and take an interest in breeding have done for our own benefit.

I learn what I like by knowing the pedigrees of the many TB sport horses that I owned, my friends owned, that competed at the higher levels. If I see a horse that I like, I try and find out its pedigree. I see if there are any common traits. I’ve spoken with and followed the advice of many more experienced. I started to see trends in what I liked and names in their pedigrees.

For example…the sire Foligno is the sire of one of my broodmares. He was a regional sire in my area. I’ve personally known more than 10 offspring by him in sport. I then spoke with others and it seems the traits he was consistently passing on…were traits thought to come from What a Pleasure. That is why that horse is on my list.

But at the end of the day…the horse in front of you is more important than their pedigree. What will sell an OTTB into sport…will be a sound, good looking, good moving and good mind.

While you are correct about the dilution of genetics, unlike other breeds except Arabs, the thoroughbred has been almost completely closed to new blood for more than two hundred and fifty years. The genes that are available to mix and match are limited and have become even more limited over the centuries by genetic bottlenecks. There are a lot of early horses that haven’t survived at all. The total founder population that has survived today probably does not exceed a total of 400, and may be less. So those 400 sets of genes have been mixing and matching for 250 years. A lot of breeders have gone back nine and twelve generations in their planning just for that reason. Since all TBs share the same genes, for specific traits, linebreeding and (or inbreeding) is extremely common; and when you do that, ancestral traits are more likely to be passed on. The TB is a CLOSED genetic package; as long as there remain different populations of that closed package with different traits, anything can pop up. I’m personally convinced that four basic phenotypes exist in the TB, and any mare can pop out any one of the four.

Let’s just say there are over 1M TBs worldwide, and only 400 possible separate genes for any given allele among all million of them.

Besides, simply concentrating very athletic genes for generations has a good probability of producing an athlete.

My Duncan looked like a replica of Pharos but lacked his speed. And Pharos was his grandsire six generations back.

Just wanted to add that there is some genetic research that shows that grandparent genes that aren’t directly used can still be preserved intact and show up a generation later. There is just so much that we don’t know about gene activation and inactivation, the “junk” DNA, etc. TBs are actually said to be good for studying things like because you start with such a limited population.

Did you know that geneticists have “proved” that every blue eyed person in the world descends from a single individual no more than 3000 years ago (or is that 3000 BC–my memory is vague)? And that 70% of all Danes are blue eyed.

Same thing is happening in TBs with the MSTN c allele. Genetic scientists estimate that the c was present in approximately 10% of TBs in the late 19th century. Not one of the great stallions whose DNA was collected and tested (Ormonde, St. Simon, Persimmon, Hyperion, Eclipse, and six or seven others) carried the c allele. Now it’s found in approximately 60% of the TB population world-wide.

1 Like

Alphabet Soup is Cozzene/Caro, which is a great line for jumping. AS produces nice sport horse types.

I was hoping AS’s stud fee would drop lower when he moved to NY. He’s got no Mr. P. or ND, and he’s supposed to cross well with Buckpasser mares.

“In the TB world this is called a “nick”. Top rated nicks are based on the fact every year there are numerous foals being born and then raced on an close to exact cross or “close enough” cross to be statistically relevant. Again I have yet to find a data base that provides quantitative information of successful breeding patterns that utilized Thoroughbred blood for sport horse…”

So having a database for sport horse breeding would be impossible because not enough high level sport horses are bred similarly??

Some of the names I like to see are Sir Ivor, Turn To, Hoist The Flag, In Reality, In Excess(Ire), Private Accounts, TV Lark, Caveat, Graustark, Bold Ruler, Hawaii, Wild Again, Spectacular Bid, Raja Baba, Ribot, Tom Rolfe, Somethingroyal, and Cox’s Ridge.

As far as “modern” sires, I dream of finding another Sea Salute mare. Others I really like are Sea Hero, Deputed Testamony, and Delaware Township.

I get these names not just from research (and okay… I obsess over Vineyridge’s posts) but from looking at the pedigree of every horse whose “type” I like or dislike and noting common ancestors. I only ever look at the first four generations, after that I assume their effect has been diluted. I am obsessed with bloodlines and could happily spend hours looking at all of it!

Saw a LOVELY mare today with a lot of popular sport horse names.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sailors+port

Hubba hubba. How’s that fly for you all? Pleasant Colony, Lyphard, Roberto, TV Lark, more His Majesty through Frosty the Snowman, Caro AND Kings Bishop.

My client owns this horse- http://www.pedigreequery.com/coxs+event2
A.P Indy on top and Coxs Ridge on bottom. One of the nicest horses that I have sat on straight off the track. We think he will be a big time horse. http://www.tebogosporthorses.com/eduardo/

I really like the Two Punch horses that we have had. Athletic, brave, good movers, scopey and smart.

Langfuhr- Nice size, athletic, good brains, good jumpers and brave.

Yes it’s True- I’ve only had one here but have known of several others and boy would I like some more in my barn.

Going back I like Halo, Nureyev, dixieland band and a bunch others but that is what is coming to my head right now.