What color is my foal?

[mnemosyne]

Hi all,
My grade palomino tobiano mare came to me already in foal (without my knowing it, nor did the vet catch it!). Baby and mama are well, but I can’t figure out the color of the filly. I know the only way to know for sure is a genetic test, but I thought I might ask here first in case anyone has ideas. I have two photos of the sire, who is a (now-gelded) two year old grade quarter horse. I know nothing else about him.
The filly has black skin, dark eyes, black mane and tail. She also has a dark dorsal stripe, but I know that’s probably just countershading. She has the same shade of grayish coat that I associate with grulla, not very brown for a bay, nor are her legs black. Any ideas or advice welcome, thanks! And I have plenty more photos / can take shots of specific things.

Sire:

[LaurieB]

I’m certainly not a color expert, but based on the parents I would guess smoky black.

Very cute filly!

[Huntin_Pony]

I had one foal born that color and he was black as an adult.

[mnemosyne]

fascinating! That would make sense with @LaurieB’s smoky black suggestion, which I understand usually looks like black.

[OverandOnward]

Before genetic color testing, where I live, she would be textbook grulla.

Nowadays they have parsed some of these color terms to fine-grained DNA analysis. Might need to send in a bunch of coat hairs to someone who specializes in equine coat color?

It will be interesting to see if she retains this coloring through her foal and yearling sheds.

The one ‘true grulla’ I knew personally became darker by the time he was an adult. He would fade in summer to the gray-brown grulla, dorsal stripe, etc. But in winter, and with a new coat, he was nearly black. His head/face were always that off-black color.

What a pretty filly!

[ThreeWishes]

I also vote Smokey black. Beautiful baby!

[cardinale]

If you haven’t seen this webpage, worth a look:

foal colors

[BWP]

Black or smoky black, would need to colour test to see which. Little cutie!

Grulla foals are very ‘buff’ coloured as newborns.

[JB]

Neither parent is dun, so not grulla.

The gene that causes Dun has 3 forms:

• D: causes true Dun markings, which must include a clear dorsal stripe that goes all the way to the end of the tailbone, and is very visible in any horse whose tail isn’t white. Ear tips (dark ear tips, not the same as dark rimmed, are another requirement, and that’s not present in the mare or sire, both are just rimmed. D also dilutes the coat, making palominos washed out and “dull”, and turning black to grulla
• nd2: no dun markings at all
• nd1: produces countershading along the spine that usually looks like a Dun dorsal, but does not continue into the tail. Some other dun markings may be present, but not often. It dilutes the coat a little bit, and is a big source of bleaching which you just can’t prevent, as it’s a function of the hair shafts, not diet. nd1/nd1 usually looks a bit more off in the color, as there’s a bit more dilution, but still not like D produces. And usually causes more sun fading as a result.

Visually, you cannot tell the difference between black and smoky black, as cream doesn’t dilute black , which is why buckskins still have black points, outside of normal black shade variations

But he’s one of those, so you’d have to test to know for sure.

Do you have a newborn, dried off photo in natural light (not in a stall)?

[Montanas_Girl]

Probably smoky black or black. You can pull mane hair (once she has real mane - the roots have to be intact) and get a DNA test pretty affordably to know for sure. Grulla is not a possibility here, since neither parent is dun, as JB noted.

Just for future reference, your mare looks to be frame overo, not tobiano. If you breed her in the future (I know this filly was a “free gift with purchase”), be sure the stallion is negative for the Overo Lethal White, aka frame, gene.

[MsM]

Just curious - what points to frame overo? The irregularity of the spot on her side?

[JB]

Good call on the Tobi, I missed that

Tobiano would never (ok, maybe not NEVER, color genetics aren’t always that black and white) not put at least a small spot of white crossing the topline and not put at least some low level of white on a foot or 4.

But Frame is a white pattern that, in its more obvious form, puts white in the middle of the horse’s body outline (not legs) with solid color “framing” the white in the middle. That white spot on her side is very telling of Frame.

Could it be a random Sabino or White spot? Yes, but more likely it’s Frame

This means if you ever purposefully breed her, and don’t test her, any stallion needs to be n/n for Frame. Never breed Frame (O/n) x Frame (O/n)

[BatCoach]

Not a bad 2 for 1 surprise deal! She’s a really cute little filly - love the big blaze…

[colorfan]

My guess is black, she may have inherited mom’s cream gene but since cream doesn’t show on black only a test or a cream baby would tell.

I also think the mare is Frame not tobi, frame can be very minimal so guessing baby is also minimal frame.

[JB]

The bottom-heavy and offset face white suggests Splash, but that doesn’t mean Frame can’t also be there.