What do dry spots really say about saddle fit?

[Scribbler]

There is some common wisdom out there that dry spots under a saddle show pressure points where the sweat glands are too squished to work.

But really how severe would the pressure need to be and wouldn’t it also raise a sore spot?

Thinking about myself, there is no place on my body where tight clothes or belts make me not sweat! Indeed I sweat more when things are tight.

Looking at sweat patterns from contemporary saddles I think the dry spots are always from gaps or bridging whether that’s on the back or behind hollow withers. The saddle simply doesn’t make contact there.

Had anyone ever actually had dry spots from too much pressure? If so how did you know? And was it different in shape or size than dry spots from bridging?

[cnigh]

Dry spots indicate bridging of the saddle and pad. And yes it causes the horse to be sore through the back. The wet spots are where the saddle is putting pressure on the horse.

[Guilherme]

Dry spots can actually mean either pressure or no pressure, depending on circumstances. They are often an indicator of an issue but don’t always mean the same thing.

G.

[Scribbler]

@Guilherme

Dry spots can actually mean either pressure or no pressure, depending on circumstances. They are often an indicator of an issue but don’t always mean the same thing.

G.

OK, so how do you tell the difference whether it is no contact or too much?

As far as soreness, I would figure a direct pressure point would create acute pain right under the pressure point, and even a bruise or open wound. Where as bridging would cause more general back strain. The soreness would be in withers or lower back where the saddle rests but not in the mid back where saddle doesn’t touch.

[NoSuchPerson]

Here’s an article:

http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/Dry-Spots-pt1-Terry-Wagner-Sept2012.pdf

The author has written several articles on saddle fit for the two mule magazines I used to get. This one says “part 1,” but I couldn’t find any “part 2.”

[beowulf]

IMHO sometimes I think deciphering what dry marks could mean is just about as clear as looking at tea leaves… what one person sees as a cloud another person sees as a dog…

Even in the saddles I have known to fit (approved by finicky horses) there were still some dry spots on the saddle pads. I think it is easier to look at the sweat marks on the horse and see if there are any spots that are glaring.

I would love to see some actual evidence on the matter. Seems most of saddle-fitting articles I come across are not done by independent ‘researchers’ but by representatives of specific saddle companies… so I am reluctant to take much of what is out there as gospel given they all seem to like to try to undercut their competitors.

[Scribbler]

@NoSuchPerson

Here’s an article:

http://www.westernmulemagazine.com/image/webimage/Dry-Spots-pt1-Terry-Wagner-Sept2012.pdf

The author has written several articles on saddle fit for the two mule magazines I used to get. This one says “part 1,” but I couldn’t find any “part 2.”

Thanks that’s really interesting! He says small dry spots in the middle of sweaty areas could be a sign of pressure or previous tissue damage. I’ve actually never seen that, only the larger dry areas from bridging or gaps at withers. Perhaps pressure points might be more common with Western and pack saddles than with English saddles?

[CanteringCarrot]

My horse has dry spots under his saddle and on his saddle pad. In this area, I feel as though the saddle is a bit snug. He is kind of pudgy shouldered, and has a forward girth groove that encourage his saddle to move forward (just got an anatomical girth in the mail yesterday). I feel like his spots are due to too much pressure. I am currently conversing with my saddle fitter and will probably be sending it in for a slight adjustment. The saddle has good balance on his back, but it just seems snug there. Pictures attached for reference.

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[Texarkana]

My mare always gets a bit of a dry spot on either side of her withers behind her shoulder. I’ve always been told those were because the saddle is too narrow, which was true with the medium tree saddle I was using on her.

I bought a new saddle with an adjustable gullet. My horse measured on the border between medium wide and a wide, so I went with the wide gullet plate initially. To my surprise, the dry spots behind her shoulder got worse with the wide gullet. I consulted a saddle fitter, who mentioned too wide of a saddle will spread the base of support away from the ideal location and create dry spots from crushing as opposed to pinching.

She seems quite comfortable with the medium wide gullet in place. Dry spots are smaller than they were when riding in a medium or wide gullet, but still present. At this point, I’ve stopped stressing about them.

[Guilherme]

@CanteringCarrot

My horse has dry spots under his saddle and on his saddle pad. In this area, I feel as though the saddle is a bit snug. He is kind of pudgy shouldered, and has a forward girth groove that encourage his saddle to move forward (just got an anatomical girth in the mail yesterday). I feel like his spots are due to too much pressure. I am currently conversing with my saddle fitter and will probably be sending it in for a slight adjustment. The saddle has good balance on his back, but it just seems snug there. Pictures attached for reference.

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This looks to me like a pretty good example of a “pressure spot.” This might mean the saddle is narrow at the gullet or it might mean the rider is really forward and creating a the pressure by their equitation practices. In this case that latter is less likely because the rear part of the sweat pattern is pretty even.

One comment I found when I was looking at this was from a guy name Len Brown (inventor of the Orthoflex Saddle). He noted that most saddle fitters work with a stationary horse and try to get a perfect fit there. The trouble is that the horse changes shape as it moves and, by definition, a perfect static fit will be an imperfect dynamic fit. In this he is absolutely correct. He sells “correction” devices for saddles to improve fit so he has an economic interest in the problem. But I’m satisfied his base argument (we must fit dynamically, not statically) is spot on. Part of that dynamic, which he doesn’t’ address, is rider position which IMO is relevant for obvious reasons. So saddle fitting is very much an art form not just looking at pictures. Again, IMO, a video showing the rider doing what they normally do while mounted is a critical element of the equation.

Note that I don’t fit saddles, but have hired it done more than once!

G.

[CanteringCarrot]

@Guilherme

This looks to me like a pretty good example of a “pressure spot.” This might mean the saddle is narrow at the gullet or it might mean the rider is really forward and creating a the pressure by their equitation practices. In this case that latter is less likely because the rear part of the sweat pattern is pretty even.

One comment I found when I was looking at this was from a guy name Len Brown (inventor of the Orthoflex Saddle). He noted that most saddle fitters work with a stationary horse and try to get a perfect fit there. The trouble is that the horse changes shape as it moves and, by definition, a perfect static fit will be an imperfect dynamic fit. In this he is absolutely correct. He sells “correction” devices for saddles to improve fit so he has an economic interest in the problem. But I’m satisfied his base argument (we must fit dynamically, not statically) is spot on. Part of that dynamic, which he doesn’t’ address, is rider position which IMO is relevant for obvious reasons. So saddle fitting is very much an art form not just looking at pictures. Again, IMO, a video showing the rider doing what they normally do while mounted is a critical element of the equation.

Note that I don’t fit saddles, but have hired it done more than once!

G.

I can certainly subscribe to that. The saddle fitter that I used to use watched me ride the horse, and walked along side me at the walk and felt certain areas in the horse/saddle. However, where I am now, we have a real lack of fitters and most are far or don’t adjust on site. So, it’s interesting.

With this saddle I think the tree should be widened a wee bit. No drastic change, but just a little more room. So from what I know of the horse, and can feel, the dry spot is from pressure.

On this horse, the rider cannot put their weight too far forward, or if they do, said horse will let you know very sensitive to rider position. However, I can see how that could be a cause or play a role.

[Scribbler]

@CanteringCarrot

My horse has dry spots under his saddle and on his saddle pad. In this area, I feel as though the saddle is a bit snug. He is kind of pudgy shouldered, and has a forward girth groove that encourage his saddle to move forward (just got an anatomical girth in the mail yesterday). I feel like his spots are due to too much pressure. I am currently conversing with my saddle fitter and will probably be sending it in for a slight adjustment. The saddle has good balance on his back, but it just seems snug there. Pictures attached for reference.

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Interesting! To me this looks like a horse with slightly hollow withers so the saddle is not making contact there. I think the saddle has a hoop tree, correct? The pommel is riding rather low which might give the impression the saddle is tight but I think the angle of the tree points doesn’t conform to the angle of the wither. Even in the photo of the saddle.

[CanteringCarrot]

@Scribbler

Interesting! To me this looks like a horse with slightly hollow withers so the saddle is not making contact there. I think the saddle has a hoop tree, correct? The pommel is riding rather low which might give the impression the saddle is tight but I think the angle of the tree points doesn’t conform to the angle of the wither. Even in the photo of the saddle.

See, this is where pictures can be so deceiving! The saddle makes direct contact there. He actually bulges out there as opposed to hollowing. The saddle is not a hoop tree, and the pommel is quite high (3-4 fingers above withers). I will see if I can dig up more pictures, but I can confidently say there is no lack of contact there.

[Crash_Helmet]

I agree with Scribbler and would be very interested in seeing photos that show your horse’s bulge in that area. I’ve always questioned the dry spot = pressure theory. If that were the case, why is your horse’s spine dry?

[CanteringCarrot]

@Crash Helmet

I agree with Scribbler and would be very interested in seeing photos that show your horse’s bulge in that area. I’ve always questioned the dry spot = pressure theory. If that were the case, why is your horse’s spine dry?

Well, I should re-word. He doesn’t bulge there necessarily, but is not hollow. The problem is that there is more “horse” there than the saddle can fit it seems. The way the saddle is flocked, it does make contact and have pressure. I have felt it both in and off the horse.

I ride another horse that does have hollows there. His saddle and type of saddle pad account for that. He, I could see having lack of pressure without the pad.

You do not think that dry spots could be caused by both no pressure and too much/concentrated pressure? Which, can make things a tad more complicated.

I’ll see if I have or can get better photos. I need to send more to the fitter anyway.

Curious to see if anyone else has any photo examples.

[candico]

I remember reading an article by someone who actually makes custom saddles and also owns horses/rides. He tried to create an even sweat pattern by making all sorts of adjustments to the flocking and trying different trees and concluded that some horses will just always have some dry patches unless they sweat so much that they are drenched. FWIW

[Risuena]

When I first got my TB, I knew my saddle wasn’t great but thought it would be ok until I found the right one. Well, while I was saddle shopping but before I found the right saddle, he made it VERY clear that he didn’t like the fit. Long story short, I found a good saddle (with gussets, that fill in the hollow he has behind his withers), he was happy in it, and it was tweaked and declared great by a saddle fitter. Horse stayed happy and saddle fitter said it still looked good a year later. Horse is still happy…and STILL has dry spots behind his wither. I still fret about it from time to time but I’m confident that he’ll tell me if he’s not happy, so between that and the saddle fitter’s blessing, I try not to worry about it. Like the poster above said, he has those dry spots unless he’s drenched.

[Corky]

My hard to fit, round w whither mare had a nice wide County that was restuffed and fitted to her. Balance was great, however she would get so lean, at the end of a long hunt season that she needed the saddle filled out by a wool halfpad, where as start of the season she was good sans halfpad. But no matter what, she always had ‘dry’ pockets directly under the stirrup bars. My fitter said it was because when you ride with weight in the stirrups and you ride long hours, like 4 hours of hunting long, you will always have greater pressure under the stirrup bars and have the ‘dry’ spots as a result. However if you close your eyes and run your hand over your horses back - are they actually dry? My mares were never dry, always even temp and wetness as the rest of her, and her saddlepad was wet, just the colour looked dry.

I try not to over-read sweat marks on saddle pads or ‘dry’ marks on their backs. I go through initial points of fit - clearance, channel width, freedom of shoulder, balance, check for bridging and rocking, etc. Ride hard, then check them 4-6 hours later and check them again 24 hours later for pain in the back. If their back has little to no reflex when you apply firm and even pressure down each side of the topline muscles, and the horse doesn’t exhibit disobediences related to saddle fit, then I figure it fits.

[CanteringCarrot]

Somewhat interesting development from the above photos of my horse:

I set the saddle back further just a bit because the saddle tends to sit more forward on him than needed due to his forward girth groove (just bought a girth to remedy the situation), and he also sweat more today, which led to smaller “dry spots” pictured above. Still present, but smaller. So, I am going to continue to monitor and see if the new girth changes anything too. He shows no signs of soreness upon touch at the moment.

[Draftmare]

My mare has had these dry spots almost from day one of her being broke out: http://imgur.com/a/82xUJ

We have been through quite a few saddles between ages 3 and now at age 8. They aren’t as large with my dressage saddle as they are with my jump saddle, but they are almost always there. Does that mean she has damage in that area?