[QUOTE=Thomas_1;4567883]
So is this about Gelderlanders?[/QUOTE] The KWPN has 3 books; Gelders, Riding and Harness. The Harness book being heavily influenced by Oregon and the Hackney Cambridge Cole and it is open to Hackney and Saddlebred outcross blood. There are currently 4 erkend Hackney stallions and no Saddlebred ones, but there are 2 Half-Saddlebred approved stallions.
http://www.breedersguide.com/dhh/dhh_arc.htm#sale
To my understanding some lovely Dutch Harness horses sold here for next to nothing!
BTW- Hackney horses, though not the same breed, are VERY similar in looks, action and willingness to work. They are an endangered breed.
and for my 3rd topic of this post: IMO it is about time the dressage world looked at horses that are bred to move the way the dressage people seem to want them to move, instead of trying to make it out of a breed that really isn’t built or bred to do it (remember I said IN MY OPINION)
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;4567883]
So is this about Gelderlanders?[/QUOTE]
Only in the fact that Gelderlanders WERE and SHOULD be considered to be a different TYPE horse than the DHH. Easy to confuse with similar coloring, action, and sometimes cross breeding.
The breed was quite fixed for many years, until market wanted a different style, lighter horse for modern uses. Bred away from the old standards. Too bad, genetics folks say that once the bone is gone, you can’t breed it back in with draft crosses. Our horses had IMMENSE bone, with no loss of NATURAL action, proportionate to the rest of the horse. Feet came up and folded over, shod or barefoot, front and hind.
For folks new to the breeds the Dutch have made, just wanted to make it clear that Gelderlanders were not interchangable with DHH, in the beginning of the studbook establishment. That is why both breeds each have their own section to be tracked in, under the KWPN heading. Each Dutch registered horse is evaluated to make registration, keeping up the “quality control” of the breeds. Very strict in evaluations and performance expectations to attain breeding privileges, when I last checked using a KWPN stallion.
Goodhors - Please check your Dutch Horse history. Actually, they were very interchangable in the beginning. If you know the history of the Dutch Horse, you would know this. And NO, each horse does not need to be evaluated to be registered.
The horses you mention sound magnificent! There are still horses of these heavy types in both books (Gelderlander and Dutch Harness Horse) around today, but they are not so common. Some older Dutch folks have been known to use the blanket term “Gelderlander” to describe this type of horse, when infact they may have been heavy bodied horses who have TP on their papers. Historically, it has been a bit of a grey area . . .
A bit of history:
To understand the Gelderlander, the Dutch Harness Horse, and even the Dutch Warmblood history, one would know that there are 100% pure Gelderlander bloodline horses in the Dutch Harness Horse book (although sadly, they are dying off). Same goes for the Gelderlander book.
The guidelines for the Dutch driving horse were established in 1896 (no, not 1996). The horses were originally lighter type - maybe similar to what we see today. They were crosses of Oldenburg, Ost-Fresian, Anglo-Norman, Hackney, and I believe some Cleveland Bay. In the 30’s, the light horse disappeared and was replaced with the heavy Groninger horses, and Oldenburg and East Fresian. This is where the things got a bit gray with distinction between the Gelderlander and the Dutch Harness Horse. Alot of the same horses can be found in both books. At this time, the types of horses were more aligned.
The studbooks all joined together in 1939 = VLN. The ag/farm driving horse developed into a specific type as driving shows became popular.
In the 70’s, the WPN (3 Northern provinces = the Groningen book, and the VLN (remaining parts of the Netherlands = Gelderlander book) merged to form the KWPN. This is when the specs for riding type and harness type of today were started. The Gelderlander was almost extinct. In 1979 (a year after the KWPN wanted to abandon the Gelderlander altogether), a group was formed within the KWPN, Breeders and Friends of the Basis Horse.
Very good explanation Fantastic!Thank you for posting that. I have driven & trained many, many Gelderlanders & Groninger"s over the years & have found there are many types in the bloodlines that are (as you correctly state) blanketed as one breed.
Robert
Fantastic, thank you for the corrections. It has been a long time since I did any of the information on the Dutch books and requirements. Obviously had some things wrong, in my confusion of the European Stud Book requirements.
Our Gelderlander mare had been branded, supposedly top grading at inspection with that mark. However she was sterile, could not get her bred. That is the only reason she was allowed out of the country as part of the original Team of 5 that was sold, per Tjeerd Velsta who assembled and trained them all.
Thank you also for the details of the body styles and how desired looks have changed so radically with the market over that time. My information was often vocal, knowledg passed from people, so could easily have been incomplete or misunderstood by me. I was checking a bunch of Warmblood stallions at the time. The rules DID get confusing for each Registry, same horse in muliple books, same BREEDING lines in multiple books. And many things have changed since back then, so adding even MORE confusion to lots of us!
Renae has also been helpful with keeping us straight with the Dutch breeds.
Goodhors - thank you so much for sharing your story. It is obvious that you were very fond of those wonderful old Dutch horses, and with good reason! Oh, what I would give to have horses just like the ones you speak of! Your story created pictures in my mind and emotions in my heart for these horses of yester year. Do you happen to have pictures that you can share with us? I would so much love to see them!
It is so sad that the mare was sterile. I am sure they would not have let her leave the country otherwise. Do you happen to know what her bloodlines were?
Yes I agree, the registration possibilities are still confusing today! 
You have probably already seen this, but here is an article and picture about Tjeerd Velstra being appointed National Driving and Training Coach in 2008. http://ww2.wkvierspannen.nl/en/nieuws/nieuw_artikel105.html . There are many, many articles out there on the web about him!
Someone please explain and help me understand.
I know what a Dutch Draft is but I’m thinking that you don’t mean that from the description. Being that the Dutch Draft horse is a great big work horse rather than a sports horse type.
I’m still not understanding what a Dutch Harness horse is???
I thought you meant a Dutch Warmblood but seemingly not?
So is it a breed or a type?
Is it a gelderlander cross?
Or a saddlebred cross?
How long has “it” existed?
How was “it” first developed?
the kwpn registers 3 types; the Gelders which is the base of the other 2 types, the riding (warmblood) and harness. The Gelders type must have 87.5% Dutch blood (the rest can be nearly anything), the Harness type must have at least 25% Dutch blood and the rest must be Hackney or Saddlebred, and the Riding type has no blood requirements.
The modern Gelders horse is being bred as a dual purpose riding and driving horse whereas the Harness horse is being with driving, specifically show ring driving, as the ultimate goal. If you go to the KWPN website and find the linear score sheets for each type you will see they are different, reflecting these different goals the KWPN has for each type. I would post the links but i am on my phone right now not a computer
So I think I understand and in terms of answering my questions would this be right?
I know what a Dutch Draft is but I’m thinking that you don’t mean that from the description. Being that the Dutch Draft horse is a great big work horse rather than a sports horse type. Not one of those
I thought you meant a Dutch Warmblood but seemingly not? Could be
So is it a breed or a type? It’s a type
Is it a gelderlander cross? Could be
Or a saddlebred cross? Could be
How long has “it” existed? Probably not that long as a registry. Say post war?
How was “it” first developed? I’ve not a clue.
Can’t find the site you mention either but I’ll wait for the link and a fuller explanation if I’ve got it wrong still.
sounds right to me Thomas! the KWPN site is www.kwpn.nl also look up the Ritsma Show Horse website, Marcel Ritsma has nice info on there
Here is what I think of when I hear
Dutch Harness Horse
[URL=“http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/WCLV07f.JPG/250px-WCLV07f.JPG”]
Dutch Warmblood
What do the experts think about the wikipedia description?
look here history of the dutch harness horse
http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.dutchharness.net/history/index.html&ei=_j4xS63LFNKv4QbQpOWqCA&sa=X&oi=nshc&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAsQzgQoAA&usg=AFQjCNHPMfZ63X5doxaTc1kKj-MvHcTlZQ
you will see newer types have laods of hackney
my old jj that becks has is the old fashion type and has a roman nose
I am not sure if you can view these photos if you are not a member of the group, but here is my collection of Dutch Harness Horse referance photos http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kwpngroup/photos/album/159977819/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
Here is Rene van der Kuil’s website on Dutch Harness Horses, he puts up great photos and has all the latest news http://www.tuigpaarden.net/engels.php
Here is the KWPN site page that gives the rules for each of the books http://www.kwpn.nl/site/main/map?guid=b590623c-617f-11de-befd-000c299e1a48 it is in Dutch but if you have a browser that translates for you you can get the jist of it, otherwise here are the breeding goals for each book briefly stated in English on the North American website http://kwpn-na.org/breeding/
And here is the definitions of what is being scored on a KWPN linear scoring sheet http://kwpn-na.org/display/files/LinearScoring.pdf if you look at the end of the document you will see that it is in the movement where the Dutch expect the Harness horse to be unique from the Gelders of Riding horses. Someone said on this thread that once you breed out bone it is difficult to breed it back in, well once you breed out a spectacular trot, especially concerning the hind end, it is difficult to impossible to breed it back in.
[QUOTE=goeslikestink;4571354]
look here history of the dutch harness horse
http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.dutchharness.net/history/index.html&ei=_j4xS63LFNKv4QbQpOWqCA&sa=X&oi=nshc&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAsQzgQoAA&usg=AFQjCNHPMfZ63X5doxaTc1kKj-MvHcTlZQ
you will see newer types have laods of hackney
my old jj that becks has is the old fashion type and has a roman nose[/QUOTE]
Oregon (1950) and Hoogheid (1966) were stallions of the original Gelderlander studbook (Sgldt) before founding KWPN in 1970.
Until founding KWPN in 1970 the versatile Gelderlander was the main breed. The KWPN specialized riding horses and harness horses are descending from the Gelderlander agricultural/riding/harness horse, but the specialized horses are refined with foreign specialized riding horse and hackney blood. At the beginning KWPN approved Gelderlander stallions for breeding riding horses (the last one was Zoöloog, sold to USA) and for breeding harness horses (the last one was Fortissimo, gelded in 2003). Pure Gelderlander harness horse stallions that were disapproved, later are approved for the Gelderlander horse p.e. Ahoy www.gelderlanderhorse.nl/pedigree/nederlands/horse.php?N=00000352 In 1998 – against the will of the Gelderlander breeders – KWPN changed the pedigree rules for the Gelderlander horse and since for registration as a Gelderlander horse isn’t required any Gelderlander blood in the pedigree. So the Gelderlander genes and qualities are on the way out.
But there is hope for the Gelderlander breed yet. Gelderlander breeders founded the Gelderlander Horse Association and this made an appeal to the Dutch Parliament. In 2007 the Dutch Parliament decided – unique in history for an individual breed – that the Gelderlander bloodlines have to be preserved, because of the good qualities and particularly the famous character of this horse. But KWPN refuses to change their politics and enjoys the confidence of the Dutch Minister for Agriculture.
At 8 December 2009 the Gelderlander Horse Association again made an appeal with arguments to the Dutch Parliament and at 16 December the Parliament decided to send their letter to the Minister of Agriculture asking for an answer in written about what is going on. The Minister has to answer the Parliament before 1 February 2010.
Pictures of pure Gelderlander horses with old bloodlines, that were registered as harness horse:
Paledo www.chardon.nl/vierspansport/english/paledo.html
James Bont www.gelderlanderhorse.nl/pedigree/nederlands/horse.php?N=00008787
I’d love to see these old type Gelderlanders…
Goodhors - this makes me sad as this is exactly the type of WB that I love. Do you have any pics of them…even casual ones? I’d love to see them.
Are there any breeders trying to save the old, foundation type? That is always needed because you can’t keep breeding light/modern to light/modern.
I didn’t know that the DHH and Gelderlander were almost the same breed. I’ve seen Geldies at the highest levels of RIDDEN competition…but haven’t noticed DHHs at that level or RIDDEN competition.
Is the Gelderlander more of a crossover, compared to DHH? <EDIT TO ADD: I read the rest of thread and had alot of my questions answered. I’d still like to know if there is “pure Gelderlander blood preservationist breeders” And I hope that the Gelderlander Registry gets what it needs from the Dutch Government! Sounds exciting>
Pics please!
[QUOTE=goodhors;4567293]
We had old-style Gelderlanders for a couple years, imported years ago. They had a LOT more substance and bone than the present DHH I am seeing. Ours had the natural action front and hind, just flat shod. They both wore size 4 in the European shoes.
Ours both rode and drove, had PLENTY of power, enough to make your eyes water at the big trot! They came from the Dutch School, trained by Mr. Velstra as part of a Team. They were kindly, certainly willing and taught us MUCH about what to expect in upper level horse ability and skills. They had done a lot of ridden Dressage, were quite capable of the upper level movements, with a skilled rider pushing the buttons. I was not that good a rider, but fun to watch them under another!
We met Mr. Velstra at the Gladstone World Pairs Championship in 1993, asked about the two of them. He actually remembered them fondly as he had assembled the Team originally. He told us then that TRUE Gelderlanders like ours were dinosaurs, end of the era. No one was breeding them like that, not what the market wanted. He only knew about 15 Gelderlander horses like that still around back then, and they were being crossed to lighter animals for more action.
Haven’t seen any to equal ours since. Lots that have the color, good action, just lack substance as we expect it. With Mr. Velstra at the heart of Dutch breeding, have to believe what he told us. DHH and Gelderlander WERE quite different animals, in the past.
Our animals were old when we got them, over 20yrs, possibly much older. So they were bred in the late 1970’s or very early 80’s for a time frame. Saw photos of them in competition in the 1980’s when CDE was very young. We sure enjoyed them, as did the girl we gave one to after putting one down for health problems. Took it to college and showed the “pretty horse” riders how to REALLY do those upper movements! Left them with their mouths hanging open after the unkind remarks about the looks of horse!! Nothing anyplace around to match her skilled education under saddle. The girl really loved that horse.
The Gelderlanders both had nice endings after all their years of service. Bodies were old and worn, but sound movers to the end.[/QUOTE]
Fancy That- there is a tendency in North America for people who have KWPN Harness Horses to call them Gelderlanders if they do ridden dressage with them. I’ve seen it several times, horses who I know it says TP on the papers for type (TP stands for Tuigpaard aka Harness Horse) and people call them Gelders. It’s kind of splitting hairs, because they can be nearly the same thing, I chalk it up to dressage snobbery and not wanting to admit they are riding a horse that was bred to be a driving horse. I would just say the next time you see a KWPN horse that you like, wether it be a Warmblood Riding horse, Harness Horse or Gelders horse ask about the bloodlines and try to investigate what is catching your eye.
[QUOTE=Renae;4575081]
I chalk it up to dressage snobbery and not wanting to admit they are riding a horse that was bred to be a driving horse. [/QUOTE]
I’m not shy about my TP’s pedigree.
