What do we think of endotapping?

[Scribbler]

What I am seeing is folks tapping for 10 or 15 minutes and the horse does not lower its head or change its posture or attitude.

I think that of you were a halfway alert trainer, you could train a horse that bopping was a cue to lower the head. Then your endotapping would look like it made the horse relax. But actually it is a pressure release response, horse learns that if he lowers his head the annoyance stops.

You could of course teach lowering the head to any cue. You don’t need the endotapping stick.

The people I see using this are committed recreational riders in a self board barn who school and train within their limits, trail ride, and do ground work. Our interests overlap quite a bit. I quietly disagree with some of what they do, but then I quietly disagree with everyone on something they do. They aren’t total flakes or nonriders.

I think the endotapping in the video and in clinics is being presented as a surefire technique that automatically leads to relaxation and a dropped head because it has a particular physiological effect on a horse. But I think that if you are doing it for 10 minutes with no effect, it doesn’t work like that.

It’s pretty easy to see when massage, or grooming, or scratching the neck, makes a horse relax and go all soft eyed and floppy. It usually happens pretty quickly if it’s going to happen.

Anyhow I didn’t realize that endotapping was so rare. I thought for sure I’d get half a dozen responses from people explaining how they use it every day, and I’d need to walk back my snark a bit.

That no one has even been exposed to it makes me think it actually isn’t effective enough to be adopted even in groundwork world generally.

[Spudsmyguy]

Exactly my thoughts. The horse was responding to being trained to pressure and release, not that the horse is relaxed by dropping his head. He’s learned that if he dropped his head, the tapping would stop. I once saw a gamer/rodeo type reef on her horse’s mouth in a seesaw saying “get your head down” The horse dropped his head obediently but don’t think there was relaxation there. Horse looked totally cowed.

[KBC]

Mmm, now after my “big fall” my Physiotherapist did some EFT tapping with me, love people who work with body and mind combined. I found it very useful, and still use some of it today if I get really stressed. I can’t help but wonder if there is a grain of something buried deep in here!

What Is EFT Tapping? 5-Step Technique for Anxiety Relief

[Scribbler]

Yes, I’ve heard about this kind of tapping too. But as my friend who likes it says (and they are also dubious about horse endotapping) it’s much lighter. It’s also something you have control over. Imagine if someone walked up to you at random and started tapping you either when you were flaked out on the sofa (or stall) or genuinely trying to concentrate on work (or on your buddies galloping around the field in the wind). Wouldn’t it just be annoying?

[KBC]

@Scribbler

Yes, I’ve heard about this kind of tapping too. But as my friend who likes it says (and they are also dubious about horse endotapping) it’s much lighter. It’s also something you have control over. Imagine if someone walked up to you at random and started tapping you either when you were flaked out on the sofa (or stall) or genuinely trying to concentrate on work (or on your buddies galloping around the field in the wind). Wouldn’t it just be annoying?

That’s why I said a nugget of truth! Yes people just starting tapping on you would be annoying, and self tapping is different, but maybe there are odd times it works.

[Scribbler]

I think there’s a nugget of truth, and I was in fact expecting someone to turn up that used endotapping constructively.

I think horses can relax with rubbing and touch, and maybe you could finger tap them very lightly. But perhaps also so many of our active cues involve tapping horse with leg or whip, that it’s the wrong thing to expect relaxation. Whereas a rub or scratch is never a cue.

[Clover5]

I was (briefly) at a barn whose trainer seemed to fall into the ‘annoy them into submission’ camp. I once watched a student of hers ‘schooling’ their horse. Every stride she bump bump bumped her legs and tap tap tapped her dressage crop, saying ‘Pay attention!’ at regular intervals. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a horse tune their rider out so soundly. Apparently she wasn’t satisfied with this so she began kicking her horse forward into an extended canter before hauling them to a sharp stop, then kicking them forward again. Unsurprisingly, her horse started rearing. Thank goodness my green mare stayed as cool as a cucumber and didn’t flip out.

Some people’s horses are true saints - I could point you to a couple of horses who would flip themselves over if you tried kicking and hauling like that, and others that would probably make a good effort at kicking you if you ‘endotapped’ their bellies over and over again like they do in the video.

[GraceLikeRain]

I’ve got a mare that would make an endo tapper seem like a miracle worker. Without a doubt I know that if I tapped in one spot she would move, move, stress, escalate, realize she can’t escape, freeze, and go nose to ground. Someone would then say “look at how this horse went from stressed to zen” but in reality they’re holding the rope of a shut down horse turned inward. I have some reservations regarding Tristan tuckers desensitization work for this same reason. When the focus becomes on the head and neck lowering as a sign of a horse going from sympathetic to parasympathetic, I think it can lead to some horses creating a habituated response while still stressed.

I have someone locally who does endo tapping. I don’t know them personally. When people ask about trainers who can work through tough issues she’s often a top recommendation. Very little social media presence but from what I’ve found she’s very loud in terms of voice volume and not super aware of her body language. Part of me wonders if her success comes from tapping being the only time she is still and quiet so the horses learn that’s the only time they get a break from the excessive energy being projected from her.

[fourfillies]

I’m with @LilRanger. Sounds like something best done at an ambulatory surgical center for people, not horses.

[Arlomine]

The riding in the video is so bad that I cannot fathom anything leading to this result being a good idea.

[Scribbler]

Ok, I watched the video. I didn’t think I needed to. OMG. Horrendous riding.

Also I thought I’d been told that endotapping was somehow naturally soothing to the horse. But no. This video clearly states that horses go through 3 stages, reacting ignoring and finally dropping the head. These folks then use endotapping to get the horse to drop its nose to the ground at walk trot and canter.

I’m sorry, these horses aren’t relaxing at w t c. They are just rooting. Big difference.

Somehow the endostick then morphs into an all purpose cue to extend, collect, and halt. At that point I think we are onto gibberish. And something very like a Western spur halt at the end.

If this is the original source of the endotapping, and if our regional groundwork trainer based anything off this, I’ve just lost a major amount of respect for him. This video should only inspire you to run far far away.

These are not happy horses.

[S1969]

@Scribbler

Ok, I watched the video. I didn’t think I needed to. OMG. Horrendous riding.

LOL after these comments I had to watch; I agree that it’s really bad. And I’m not even a good rider.

@Scribbler

Imagine if someone walked up to you at random and started tapping you either when you were flaked out on the sofa (or stall) or genuinely trying to concentrate on work (or on your buddies galloping around the field in the wind). Wouldn’t it just be annoying?

And if this happened - eventually you would just submit and hope for it to be over. I don’t know that it actually would do anything more than that. Not sure why we would want to encourage something like this.

[Scribbler]

Interestingly our regional groundwork trainer who teaches it (a) doesn’t credit the originator and (b) takes the position that endotapping is naturally pleasurable and releases endorphins.

After actually seeing this video I am confirmed in my belief that it’s not inherently pleasurable. If it was the horse would not go through resist and ignore on the way to “relax.” Also just like the discussion on lick and chew, merely dropping the head is not a posture of relaxation. Rooting for the ground at trot and canter is not relaxing.

It’s actually all way worse than I thought in fact. I’m glad I followed my first response and have never done it.

[Scribbler]

Btw who is JP Giacomini? Is he even still active? His website has that “dormant” look, the link to his farm in Kentucky doesn’t work, and from his bio he must be pretty old by now. His bio says he was active as a rider and coach of high level show jumping and eventing before moving to the USA as a Classical Dressage Master who was a working student for Nuno Oliviera for one year very early on.

So yeah, lots of red flags in addition to the horrible riding. What coach would even showcase students at that level unless it was to say “here’s Suzie’s first ride ever”? Shouldn’t they be on longe seat lessons at this point, if it’s classical?

So one of those situations where either the bio is fudged, or the trainer fell on wierd times in old age. He doesn’t seem to be active anymore, so I don’t really want to go full ballistic with denouncing him. But I was wondering if anyone knew the story?

His website says he is/was offering to give clinics but there’s no record or photos of previous clinics.

Oh, btw, I also note that his promo material repeatedly bills him as a master of piaffe and passage. News alert: piaffe is actually not that hard to teach way ahead of schedule, especially to baroque horses. Nor is passage. It may not be entirely correct as the horse isn’t strong enough yet and it can in fact be part of the gymnastic process. But it doesn’t mean the horse is otherwise a Grand Prix horse. You can teach piaffe to a horse that doesn’t have flying changes or extended trot, for instance.

So that’s a red flag too.

[Spudsmyguy]

@S1969

eventually you would just submit and hope for it to be over.

aka Learned Helplessness

[LilRanger]

@Scribbler

Imagine if someone walked up to you at random and started tapping you either when you were flaked out on the sofa (or stall) or genuinely trying to concentrate on work (or on your buddies galloping around the field in the wind). Wouldn’t it just be annoying?

Yes it’s extremely annoying, which is why it was often employed by my brothers when we were younger. Makes one quite ragey, or you just give up and wait for them to get bored while you plan revenge…

[BatCoach]

@Foxglove

I met when my horse was selected as a Breyer model and was asked to appear at the conference center where the Model Horse Show was being held (huge place, well attended, yes, over 1000 people)

wha? that’s really neat! I’m not much of a collector myself, but I have to ask what model your horse is. Very cool to have a model made after him.

[Foxglove]

@BatCoach --will post article and pix of the model this afternoon. There are a few pix on line still of Charlie the Percheron . . . . http://fourleggedfriendsandenemies.blogspot.com/2016/01/indiana-family-mourns-loss-of-horse.html

[moonlitoaksranch]

Hmm, maybe there is something non-magical and less weird about this after all.

I rode my rescued Morgan mare, who was newly blind, who keyed up whenever she thought she was in an arena. She moved out at a very fast, animated, trot as soon as I got on. Rein commands just made her go faster, so I loosened the reins, relaxed as much as I could, did half halts, and rubbed her neck until she dropped it a little. It took a lot of time to get her to relax under saddle in the arena. It was difficult. She was older, pretty dang smart, and eager to please (being a Morgan), so that helped.

Maybe a younger horse, all keyed up and trying to understand, might have had more difficulty deciphering? I don’t know. Either way, perhaps, used correctly, this technique is a distraction that can be used as a sort of cue to relax? It does seem that many different types of show horses need a cue to relax or loosen up. I trail ride, which is a different world from showing, so not much need for this sort of thing. I showed when I was younger, so I can understand why riders need to find a cue of some kind to ask the horse to ‘bring it down’. Especially if more than one person rides the horse.

[Scribbler]

Yes, I think there is some truth to it. People have told me of individuals with good timing who have used it successfully on specific horses, including one busybody filly. Certainly touch in general works wonders. But I see people going on for over ten minutes getting harder in their bops with horses stuck in the “shut down” ignore phase.