I was too distracted by the Lady in Pink. :eek:
I’m not a breeder, but I agree with most of the points made here. Based on my research, some North American breeders are certainly breeding for the top of the sport. But even with the best of intentions and the best bloodlines, horses with truly top potential are rather rare.
Since I will be in the market for a top dressage prospect in the near future (not for me but for a talented young professional), I would be grateful to discover who are generally regarded as the “half dozen or so top NA breeders” that Lauren should have contacted (especially if they are located in VA or a neighboring state). I have an idea based on internet research, but sometimes it’s hard to sort out breeders who are barn blind from those who really recognize quality versus mediocrity and are willing to be honest about it.
Lauren’s blog did make some fair points. I’m afraid it’s true that almost all young dressage-bred horses in NA are advertised as having unlimited FEI potential. I too would appreciate a more realistic analysis of what people have in their barns. Who are the breeders able and willing to do this? Since NA is massive, buyers can’t check out all prospects themselves and breeders, who see the young horses every day, are in the best position to evaluate them (in theory).
[QUOTE=Tamsin;8522920]
I’m not a breeder, but I agree with most of the points made here. Based on my research, some North American breeders are certainly breeding for the top of the sport. But even with the best of intentions and the best bloodlines, horses with truly top potential are rather rare.
Since I will be in the market for a top dressage prospect in the near future (not for me but for a talented young professional), I would be grateful to discover who are generally regarded as the “half dozen or so top NA breeders” that Lauren should have contacted (especially if they are located in VA or a neighboring state). I have an idea based on internet research, but sometimes it’s hard to sort out breeders who are barn blind from those who really recognize quality versus mediocrity and are willing to be honest about it.
Lauren’s blog did make some fair points. I’m afraid it’s true that almost all young dressage-bred horses in NA are advertised as having unlimited FEI potential. I too would appreciate a more realistic analysis of what people have in their barns. Who are the breeders able and willing to do this? Since NA is massive, buyers can’t check out all prospects themselves and breeders, who see the young horses every day, are in the best position to evaluate them (in theory).[/QUOTE]
Off the top of my head . . . Iron Spring, Hilltop, DG Bar, Ann Kitchel, Shooting Star, Rolling Stone. I’m sure there are many more as well, those are the ones that just popped to mind. Several of those breeders post here as well.
In Canada, Dreamscape, Parkwood Stables, Prima Equestrian
Wouldn’t it have been better to start with USDF and USEF Dressage Breeders of the Year?
From the 2015 awards:
USEF - Mo Swanson, Horses Unlimited, Maryanna Haymon, Marefield Meadows, Kenneth Borden, Jean Brinkman, Iron Spring Farm, Oak Hill Ranch, etc.
USDF - Hilda Gurney, Oak Hill Ranch, Jennifer Mason, Judy Yancey, Louise Leatherdale, DG Bar, Dan & Gina Ruediger, Mo Swanson, etc.
You can even look up the individual horses on each list to see what level they are showing and where, to see the level of horses produced.
One of the breeders on these lists is near me, and has had a horse they bred on a couple of US Teams as well as a horse placing highly at Developing Horse Championships, but Facebook would NOT be the way to contact them, as they spend almost no time on social media and haven’t even updated their page since September!!!
Seriously guys…
Is that one suposed to be a top of the line prospect? Where do theese guys shop when they go to Europe?
Try Denmark next time 
[QUOTE=SavaLou;8523484]
Seriously guys…
Is that one suposed to be a top of the line prospect? Where do theese guys shop when they go to Europe?
Try Denmark next time :D[/QUOTE]
I am no dressage expert, but keep in mind that what you see on the videos is only a 3 yo. I see balance, 3 strong gaits and good basis. I don’t think we can see much more in a 3 yo on a video. The difference between the good and the great, you can only feel it under saddle. And at 3, you can only look for good basis to work with, the rest is work, a good upbringing and a lot of chance.
I am a breeder more than a buyer, however, when shopping for a top of the line brrodmare, I looked around here and ended up buying in Europe. But as a breeder, the perception of the buyers, justified or not, are important to me. Although I feel the blog was unfair on many levels, she raised some very interesting issues. Many good breeders were named in this post as reference to horse shoppers, and many of those breeders I respect very much. The fact of the matter is that those breeders are located anywhere from Florida to NY, to Vancouver to California. Also, many of them, although having bred some good quality horses, have never bred horses that went to the top, and if they have, they may have 1 or 2 serious prospects for sale at a given time. We have to admit that it would be unrealistic to expect someone with a large budget, to fly 4, 5 or 6 hours between each horse they want to try.
The solution is not simple. Serious buyers generally do not “shop”, they browse their very well established networks for horses from reliable and known sources. If you want a shot at the top market, you must know top people. Those top people will be interested in top horses, otherwise they will not waste time with a breeder they do not feel produces great horses with regularity. In my mind, it is as simple as that. I think that the issues raised in this blog is not a reflection on breeders, it is a reflection on the market. It is a fact that there is a lot of very bad horses bred, overevaluated and overpriced in America but their is also a lot of very good and conscientious breeders with quality horses. The problem is to get the good horses easily available to the buyers. I don’t think we should focus on the criticism we feel unfair, but we have to find the reasons why people think this way, and rethink the way each breeder access the market. My opinion on that is that you cannot simply put your horses out there and hope that they will be found. You need to build a network of knowledgeable people and maintain that network by continously providing it with good horses at reasonnable prices. If you cannot generate interest in your horses, either your network is not good enough, or your horses are not good enough. And it has shown to work! When I am looking for very good young prospects (3 yo and down) outside of my network, very often the very best one are already sold. And as a breeder, I have a rather small circle of professionnal friends both here and in the US, but I have people listed to see foals that are not yet born, only because I have gathered a group of mares of great quality, and from well known dame lines that have produced regularly horses jumping 5* GP. For the record, I have personnaly not yet produced a horse showing at that level. It just goes to show that the best way to promote your horses is to build a program of great quality, and to have the best people getting to know it and talk about it.
Agree with most replies. And would add that its actually good that breeders focus on producing nice, rideable horses for AA market (Euro breeders do this as well of course) . Otherwise, there is no market to sell to! Honestly, very few can ride and correctly develop a top prospect and sadly too many of those horses do go into wrong hands, end up either with potential undeveloped ( positive scenario) or broken ( by riders/trainers who are afraid or not skilled with such animals). We do also have breeders who produce top horses, but as other posters said, they are usually sold quickly - same as Europe… Bottom line, it’s not hard to find good, even great horses. But if you want an “International” horse, then you’d better ride and train like an International rider!
I do think she made a couple of good points, but I wasn’t impressed by her below the belt negativity toward U.S. breeders. And I agree there are a bunch of breeders in NA producing quality at least on a par with the one she purchased - and many of them have produced some that I would deem as WAY better than this one.
OTOH - and this has been mentioned before - there are not many breeders who keep youngsters of riding age. They have to get them gone to make room for the younger foal crops. It is a rare breeder who can afford to keep a 3 y/o and get it going under saddle, etc.
Well, it just goes to show, there’s no accounting for taste! That is not the horse I was expecting after all that about exceptionalism! It’s a perfectly fine horse, though, and I wish her the best of luck with it.
[QUOTE=Tamsin;8522920]
I’m not a breeder, but I agree with most of the points made here. Based on my research, some North American breeders are certainly breeding for the top of the sport. But even with the best of intentions and the best bloodlines, horses with truly top potential are rather rare.
Since I will be in the market for a top dressage prospect in the near future (not for me but for a talented young professional), I would be grateful to discover who are generally regarded as the “half dozen or so top NA breeders” that Lauren should have contacted (especially if they are located in VA or a neighboring state). I have an idea based on internet research, but sometimes it’s hard to sort out breeders who are barn blind from those who really recognize quality versus mediocrity and are willing to be honest about it.
Lauren’s blog did make some fair points. I’m afraid it’s true that almost all young dressage-bred horses in NA are advertised as having unlimited FEI potential. I too would appreciate a more realistic analysis of what people have in their barns. Who are the breeders able and willing to do this? Since NA is massive, buyers can’t check out all prospects themselves and breeders, who see the young horses every day, are in the best position to evaluate them (in theory).[/QUOTE]
When I started looking for my dressage prospect, I started doing research on the breeders within about a 1 day drive of me that was breeding with internationally well know stallions from Europe and had performance mares with proven records. I also knew I had needed to buy local and young-…I am in North Texas. I looked at Pembroke Farms in New Mexico, Oak Hill Ranch in Folsom, LA and Walkabout Station in Willis, TX. I new what I was looking for going in. The breeder I finally decided on helped me as I knew I was a serious amateur but needed rideable gaits and a good temperament. She knew her horses, I could see the mares and she could also help steer me between what would be a professional type ride vs a serious amateur ride- and she had both types. And I know for a fact that the breeders that I was looking at aren’t answering ISO posts on FB…they are too busy trying to be the best breeders they can be!
[QUOTE=Forte;8523191]
Off the top of my head . . . Iron Spring, Hilltop, DG Bar, Ann Kitchel, Shooting Star, Rolling Stone. I’m sure there are many more as well, those are the ones that just popped to mind. Several of those breeders post here as well.
In Canada, Dreamscape, Parkwood Stables, Prima Equestrian[/QUOTE]
And none of those breeders are hanging out on FB answering “ISO” posts. Which is a point that WAS made several times on her FB post. No mention of THAT in her “blog”, that many people told her this was not a realistic place to find “her dream horse”. Maybe it was just a purposeful “stirring of the pot” for blog material.
I disagreed with her premise of “pro” vs “ammie” horses. I don’t necessarily see breeders trying for one type or the other (and I’m in touch with breeders and attend breed shows). I see breeders aiming to breed high-quality. I think breeders here are more ambitious than what they are given credit for.
In fact, I see a lot of horses bred here that I worry won’t find a home because they are big movers, a bit hot, and have sharp minds. There are only so many riders out there that can handle horses like that. But that’s what I see being bred.
I agree that most of the top prospects here are sold before the age of two. And this is where I think Lauren went wrong–she was very specific about a three- or four-year-old under saddle. Why not take a risk on a yearling or two-year old? To be successful in this sport, buyers need to have an eye for young horses. And if they don’t, they should educate themselves on how to evaluate young stock. It’s part of being an overall horseman.
Look at Carl Hester. He buys several young horses every year. I don’t think he’s thinking–oh this is a pro horse or this is an ammie horse. I think he’s looking for athletic horses with good minds. I bet he’s also thinking about soundness and checking their conformation. I don’t think Valegro would have come across as a “pro” horse as a young horse. And I wonder, if Valegro was born here, might he have been marketed as an ammie horse? Would someone like Lauren miss out on a U.S. born Valegro? I think Carl saw good mover, good mind, let’s try. And I think that’s where Lauren went wrong.
I also don’t think anyone ever really knows–absolutely knows–that when they buy a young horse that it will reach the upper ranks of the sport. Once again, Valegro’s story is instructive as Carl tried to sell the horse back to the breeder when he was around 5 (I’m not sure of the exact age). But then began to see the light.
But, basically, from what I’m seeing, the United States breeders are producing really good quality horses that have the potential to go to Grand Prix. And with the right training, right management, I think we’re going to see a lot more U.S. bred Grand Prix horses in the ring.
You are all articulating this better than me. I saw the FB add and thought “this will be a trainwreck.” Then the article came out and while I agree with the density issues in NA, I felt like the whole post was an unnecessary dig at the quality of horses I’m seeing produced in the US/Canada. Everyone already knows you can try more horses in a day in Europe. Also it is cheaper to get them to age four with a show record.
I also absolutely think your best bang-for-your buck on top quality in NA is going to be younger than 3. The best are sold young (in general, nobody slap me). For example, I have a breeding/training friend who bought a youngster in Canada for very reasonable money and sold her for six figures as a riding horse/team horse hopeful as she started schooling FEI (still quite young). Not on the internet, but through her network of trainers. I agree you need to cultivate contacts and build a network.
I do wish her the best with her new horse.
This is really what it boils down to.
There are horses with top potential being bred in America. It appears Lauren Sprieser hasn’t built the right connections to be aware of these animals, much less have an opportunity to purchase them before another buyer does.
LarkspurCO
Buried in the comments is a link to the horse she bought, Hurricane by Don Tango B:
[QUOTE=epowers;8522836]
Not exactly what I expected to see when the phrases “international prospect” “exceptional gaits” and “unlimited budget” were being thrown around, if I’m being honest.[/QUOTE]
Compare to a very similar horse in a video that pops-up on the side bar…
One of these youngsters has a quick, active hind leg, bends his hocks and places them well underneath at all 3 gaits…the other, another really lovely horse, but hocks, not so much…
These traits are not easy to find…
Its a very nice horse. Looking forward to seeing how it develops.
[QUOTE=TrakHack;8525972]
This is really what it boils down to.
There are horses with top potential being bred in America. It appears Lauren Sprieser hasn’t built the right connections to be aware of these animals, much less have an opportunity to purchase them before another buyer does.[/QUOTE]
right, which is why she posted a blog (read: pity party) fest complaining about how hard and difficult it was for her.
I don’t know the author at all. But I found that read incredibly arrogant. Most professionals don’t need to blather on about the fact that they are SO wonderful they can’t find a horse that suits their incredible talent. No. Those professionals know where the talent is and they go buy and develop it. They don’t feel the need to tell the world about it.
Barf.
I agree that breeders don’t keep their young stock for too long but it’s worth inquiring with them.
USDF just published their stallion guide with a breakdown of what breeders are producing… it doesn’t get easier than this for people looking for young stock!
http://www.mazdigital.com/webreader/37113?page=0
I am so happy for the breeder that I’ve worked with- she’s in the top 5! and 3 of the top breeders are in Region 9! yay us! And in looking at the stallions she is breeding to are at the top: Sir Donnerhall, Bellisimo M, Benetton Dream, Sir Gregory, Sir Sinclair, Dancier!
[QUOTE=toady123;8526103]
I don’t know the author at all. But I found that read incredibly arrogant. Most professionals don’t need to blather on about the fact that they are SO wonderful they can’t find a horse that suits their incredible talent. No. Those professionals know where the talent is and they go buy and develop it. They don’t feel the need to tell the world about it.
Barf.[/QUOTE]
This is what I wanted to say 
including “Barf”, but it is how all of her blogs are as of late.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;8521536]
I think she looked in the wrong places and got typical responses.
I know of several breeders within 2hrs of me that have dressage bloodlines that are European mares and imported semen. Some of the breeders are Dutch and German themselves…they were imported.
If I was going to find a young horse of international potential, I know of many places to look and would not place a ISO add. Probably because I wouldn’t want to deal with just everyone.
And I would probably buy a foal or yearling as most really good pedigrees are sold at an early age in NA. That is one bonus of shopping in Europe, there is more decent bloodlines at the “just under saddle” stage.
But, most horses that show outstanding potential are also spoken for early in Europe or have large price tags associated with them, after all, there is many more trained eyes and good riders to make those assessments. You tend to get what you pay for in Europe, they know their horses. Over here often people do not know what they are looking at.
She has many accurate points including the numbers and ease of visiting many farms. But the shot at “most” breeders not breeding for the top of the sport makes me think she doesn’t know where to find the top breeders. She should not have bothered with the average breeder. That may be one of the biggest faults of serious NA breeders, not having a pipeline to the serious riders.[/QUOTE]
That’s nice that you know all of these people that she apparently doesn’t.
Since you clearly have the time and energy to dedicate all these paragraphs to espousing your superior knowledge, do you have any left over to perhaps write an introductory email.
Here, let me help:
[Beeeder], meet Lauren, Lauren, meet [breeder]
“Lauren is an accomplished GP trainer with a reputation for being kind to both clients and horses. She was recently looking for some top equine talent and since I know you breed great horses, and she can take horsed all the way up the levels, I thought I’d introduce you. You guys can take it from here.”
See?
This way you can spend time on the Internet being helpful and kind.
